I have a history of being involved with men who "discover" their bisexuality-- typically right before I marry them or get close to it. I was talking about this with a friend who's studying to get her MA in sociology and says that she would wager most if not all men are bisexual and would sleep with other men, even if they had a female partner. This conversation started after I got really upset about seeing some posts on CL where men seeking men advertised that they were married and needed to be discreet. Although she thinks the dishonesty about it is inherently wrong, she does say that sooner or later as a society we'll accept that men need to be bisexual. I dunno. To be honest, I think I'm a little afraid that men's desire for women is soon to be extinct. This could also correlate to the dry spell in my dating life. I do think people fall on a scale- much like the Kinsey scale- in their sexual preferences, but perhaps we're all much more in the middle than we think? Especially those with higher sex drives (which tend to be men, although I have one of the highest sex drives of anyone I know and I'm a female in my early 30's and I can say that I am definitely not bisexual. No attraction to females here.)

You sound like you got a bad streak.

Bisexuals tend to get a bad rap since they're attraction isn't limited to one side. Heterosexual and homosexual folks tend to think bisexuals are more likely to cheat and will bang people of the other sex with no regard towards their current.

The thing is that bisexuals (and pansexuals) don't want to boink everyone. Do all heterosexuals want to sleep with any available member of the opposite sex? No. They just have a few. Same with homosexuals. There's just that fear of the opposite sex being better that bothers people, but people need to reframe it as "this person is attracted to me despite my sex organs."

Also, I don't think men are going to stop being into women all together since there are men who are 100% heterosexual and there are a lot of bisexuals that I have met who prefer women.

As to the cheating, cheaters come in all sexual orientations.

I do believe bisexual men exist, but I also believe the data from the NIH scholar who visited my campus and presented information showing that men tend to cluster at the ends of the Kinsey scale and don't change orientation much over time compared to women. As much as it bugs the 'real' bi guys to hear this all the time, openly self-identifying as bisexual is often a stop on the way to coming out as gay.

And as for craigslist... you've got a selection bias problem there. Out gay men meet openly in bars, clubs, with online apps that show face pictures, etc. CL is a well-known haunt of closet cases and my gay friends don't think of it as very good place at all to look for confident and sane partners for casual sex.

A few thoughts on bisexuality.

Years ago, I had a friend in SLC, who I met at a gay party. He told me of a bisexual friend of his who had recently committed suicide. His friend had told him that as a bisexual LDS young man, he wanted to have sex with almost everyone he met, and yet he could not have sex with anyone because he was LDS, and also because most people wanted him to be monogamous. He just couldn't take it anymore.

I believe there are distinctions to be made among the group we call "bisexual." Some could be mentally & emotionally homosexual (or heterosexual), and yet behaviorally, they are bisexual.

As I was "developing" or "discovering" my own sexual identity, I thought for a long time that I was bisexual. After all, the LD$ church teaches that we're ALL hetero, and I at least wanted to be part-way hetero. So, I dated women and I married one and had heterosexual sex with her.

When my marriage was on the rocks, I was talking to a girl who had also been married to a gay man. I told her I thought I must be "bisexual" since I had experienced (and actually liked) both kinds of sex.

She put that idea to bed when she asked me, "OK, Mr. Bisexual. How many women have you slept with, other than your wife?"

Answer: None.

And then she asked me, "What woman would you sleep with if you could have guilt-free sex with any woman in the world?"

Answer: None

And then she said, "You're gay." From that that moment on, I never doubted it.

All of that makes me think that maybe people are either homo- or heterosexual, in their core beings. Mabye bisexuals are only behaviorally bisexual.

I definitely had a similar phase and it was fairly lengthy.

I had a girlfriend from the end of HS through the beginning of my MA program and although I had a sexual relationship with another man on my mission, I managed to convince myself that because I enjoyed being with her and loved the idea of loving her, I had to be bi. I was devastated when she moved to another state and got engaged.

Reality check: I never kissed her in the 7+ years that we were together. Lots of dances, a moderate bit of hand holding when coerced into it, but I was never going to be physically into her the way a straight guy would be. So eventually I let go of the whole "bi" idea and I know that gay is a term that fits much better.

And I have to add--I KNOW without a doubt my boyfriend would never have sex with another male, let alone my dad and my brothers. (Not that there is anything wrong with it--obviously--as I completely accept my ex as GAY.)

After just reading the beginning of MJ's post--I know my ex would NEVER have sex with a woman again including your's truly--

But EVERYONE is different. You can't put even 2 people in the same category.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2013 12:13PM by cl2.

At one point in my life, I KNEW my father had never had sex with men. I KNEW it.

So, imagine my surprise when my dad let me know he had had sex with men. My dad let me know that he had had sex with men during WWII just after I came out, to let me know he "understood".

Then I KNEW he only had sex with men during WWII when he was stationed on a remote Pacific island.

So, imagine my surprise when, at my dad's funeral, I got the information that led me to the realization that dear dad had been having a Broke Back Mountain affair with his war buddy til they day is buddy died! Even after I came out and knew that my father had played with the boys, he kept his current actions secret because he was cheating on my mother.

When it comes to sexuality, I no longer "Know" what others would do or not do.

First, I do believe that most men wold be bisexual if it were socially acceptable. I am way over on the gay side of the Kinsey scale and I identify as gay, but to be honest, I have had attractions to women and I have had sex with women. I still have an occasional attraction to women.

My attraction to women is very, very rare and lasts a very, very short time. Saying "women" isn't really right, when it happens, I am abstracted to _A_ woman, not women. I have found that the attraction rarely last long enough to get the woman in the sack, so I no longer act on it. PapaKen was asked "What woman would you sleep with if you could have guilt-free sex with any woman in the world?" 99.99% of the time, I would say the same as him, NONE. If you caught me when a woman had caught my eye, I would point at the woman and say "Her".

Technically, I would have to say I am bisexual.

As many people on this board know, I had a very hard time coming out. That difficulty and the pain has caused me to be completely unwilling to explore any bisexual tendencies. There just is not enough attraction there for me to go down that road.

That said, I have had a lot of experience with men that identify as straight but will have sex with men. They come in two main classes A) willing to let a gay man suck them off and B) They like being receptive for anal sex and the women they meet are not into using dildos to satisfy him. For these guys, I believe that they are not _attracted_ to men, but there is a particular sex act where they are willing to let a guy satisfy. They use a guy like some use a Fleshlight or a dildo, a tool to be used, but not attracted to it.

So I think "Bisexuality" is a confusing term. I think it means the attraction, but could it also mean certain sexual acts?

Anyhow, I think being bisexual is not socially acceptable enough for people to come out and say they are bisexual. There are many in both the gay and straight communities that will claim a bisexual is gay and insist that the bi just come out and be gay.

So, I think there are many bisexuals like me, that are not bisexual enough to explore the lesser attraction so they identify as the major attraction. This gives the impression that men "cluster" at the ends of the Kinsey scale. My experience is that they do not, but it only appears so.

I also thing that many people subconsciously are attracted to types. You put me in a room with 99 male non or social drinkers and one alcoholic male and it is almost guaranteed I will get the hots for the Alcoholic. I have no idea how my sexual attractions figure out how the person is alcoholic only that it happens. Perhaps you do the same with bisexual men.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2013 02:02PM by MJ.

I would agree with this, I am more on the flip side. I am almost uniquely interested in women, but there are the occasional men that have gotten me going. It happens, and I struggled with that for a while. Now, I am at peace with it, and accept it as part of who I am. And who knows, if the right guy came along, maybe I would get involved with him instead of pursuing women, life is funny like that.

Does the idea of most men being Bi frighten you?

Nope. Before I let a man tug my bird I'm going to bang as many women as I can until I just can't take it anymore. Then there's the off chance, and even then can't imagine it working for me at all. I'm 40 and simply can't stop being attracted to just about every woman I see, it doesn't get easier or lessen as I get older...it gets worse. I'm becoming a dirty old man. It's a good thing I'm not incredibly good looking. I am obsessed with women. My poor wife...

Your poor wife ;)

Thanks for making sure EVERYONE knows you are unquestionably, emphatically heterosexual. May I ask, why you felt the need to be so emphatic, to the point of appearing to be a huge overreaction?

Yaqoob,

I think that 40 is way too young to border on being a "dirty old man." Biologically, certain visual, auditory, tactile, and olfactory stimuli trigger arousal. It's as if there were a certain "search type" that we unconsciously search for. If another individual falls within the parameters of that search type, the reptilian parts of our brains register the match, and instigate arousal. Or, less dramatically, we experience feelings of attraction toward a complete stranger because she (or he) falls within the parameters of our search type.

A radar gun detects speeders. Our neural networks similarly seem to be on the constant lookout for anyone who matches the parameters of our search type. Some of us have vary narrow tolerances; it's very hard for another individual to register as a match. Others have very wide tolerances, and will feel attracted to a large number of others. I suspect that all of this is mostly biologically (genetically) determined. If so, then there's no sense in using ridiculous labels such as "dirty old man."

Our bodies are biological machines--hardware. Our personalities are a combination of the operating system and various apps--i.e. the software.

As frightening as this is, read: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/14/local/la-me-pedophiles-20130115

The states of our brains determine our behavior. Most of us have brains that work similarly, and so there's no problem. But some do not. Some brains have pedophiliac tendencies. Others have homosexual tendencies. And on and on. The driving and inhibitory circuits of certain brains are such that the probabilities for acting on drives manifest, or don't. When they manifest, those in the majority condemn the social deviant. When they don't, there's no problem--except, perhaps, to the individual who is "suffering" in silence.

I take away from this that we are what our brains do. It's both as simple and complicated as that. It's not a matter of what we wish, but how we're wired. We have competing brain modules. This causes some to suffer enormously, and it's not just sexual. It could be something like attention deficit disorder, or OCD. We weren't designed, Yaqoob. We evolved. As individuals, we arose thanks to fertilization of an egg by a sperm, and genetic recombination--23 pairs of chromosomes (unless one has a genetic disorder). The genetic instructions within them determine the bauplan ("build plan," or blueprint) of our bodies, as well as behavioral probabilities. These are mediated by neonatal development, very early life experience, and enculturation, but--I suspect--to a very limited degree.

You are as you are, and you'll always be that way. That's true for all of us. Generally, people don't change over time. Personality is stable. And that is a consequence of being a material Homo sapiens sapiens being that evolved through natural selection.

By trying to "improve" our natures to conform with social mores, we're literally fighting against nature, specifically genes. Over the long haul, that's a losing battle. Natural selection doesn't care about our happiness. It only wires the genetic probabilities to increase the chance for procreation so that the species will survive. The forces are, as far as anyone knows, blind.

That's the tragedy of life.

I'd really like to understand your story, Yaqoob. Since leaving the Church, what do you now believe, and what do you hope for in life?

Thanks,

Steve

+1, Great, well said. I like your explanation.

I think it is super common for most men to have sexual attraction to other men at points in life. I think it is becoming more socially acceptable for men to act on the attraction. Being a married bisexual man I see it very frequently in my small town and have been propositioned several times by straight men when they find out I'm bi (I'm not closeted). These men come from various backgrounds and are all stereotypically straight. They often assume that it's ok to proposition a bi man even if he's married because they're married too...it's kinda sad.

I think more men than not would actually have sex with another man if out of nothing more than mere curiosity were there no stigma attached with the action. This is only my anecdotal opinion but my years in high school, college, mission, community involvement, etc. have shown me that a casual sexual interaction with another man is easy to obtain if you want it and the men who are willing often don't identify as gay or even bi. Before I was married I had my wild streak and was completely floored how far most men are willing to go for some sexual release. I prefer sex with women but have had more with men because it is so much easier to find and there are leads strings attached-especially if the man is straight but has sex with men....I'm just glad I've found my wife and best friend and all that craziness is in the past. I think it's good for people to go out and try new things but it is eventually nice to settle down.

To the OP...yes men are becoming more open to experimentation...men are more willing to be promiscuous than women...and sex with men is sometimes logistically an easier alternative to sex with women (not so many games). But overall there are a majority of good guys out there looking for someone to settle down with...just be your best self and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised to find that there are still men out there looking for women like you.

I always thought that sexual orientation is not about who you are willing to have sex with, but for whom you can feel a romantic attachment.

I could probably have sex with a woman and enjoy it, but the idea of trying to get into a romantic relationship with one is depressing to me. I just don't think I COULD form romantic feelings for a woman. I'm not drawn to women in that way.

Many people have sex with toys. I would not argue that this makes them objectumsexuals. (Which is actually a thing, I just found out).

Hi Moroni,

Yes, at the core, it's about emotional attraction, not sex.

Steve

Actually, in the gender studies literature there is a distinction made between sexual orientation and affectional orientation.

Sexual orientation = who you are most likely to have sex with
Affectional orientation = with whom you create romantic attachments

In most people a gay sexual orientation will mean that your affectional orientation is toward men, but this isn't always the case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2013 12:17PM by Inverso.

Hi Inverso,

I didn't know that. It's fascinating.

Can you point out the strongest journal articles to me?

Thanks,

Steve

How many times does a "straight" guy have to have sex with another male before he is bisexual?

How many times does a "gay" guy have to have sex with a woman before he is bisexual."

A gay man, who is married to a woman, and has only had sex with that woman, is still gay.

But the question was "bi."

What I mean is sexual orientation doesn't directly relate to what sex acts are performed. Otherwise, you really would be able to change orientation.

Orientation is about what attracts you, what you fantasize about and who you fall in love with.

I could decide to have sex with as many women as I have men. I would still be straight, because I'm not attracted to women, physically or emotionally. I would consider myself a 0 on the Kinsey Scale because I have never crushed on a girl and have zero interest in forming romantic or sexual relationships with women.

As pointed out above, I guess romance and sexuality don't have to correlate either. Human sexuality is complex.

I would personally consider anyone between 2-4 on that scale to be bi.

So what am I then!? Now I'm confused!?!? Because of TSCC I have only banged one woman, and that all started when my then GF "licked my cupcake" on Grace Lou's floor (a story for a different time.) That was 17 years ago, and the defining moment of my "emphatic" straightness. I married her...years later she would confess to being determined to steal my virginity.

Fast forward 1996 to whatever year this is...I still want to run my hands up the legs and skirts of most women between 30-55. Dear wife pays for stealing my virginity as she knows I am a powder keg of horny straightness, given the license to do so I would be something like a more pathetic and less powerful Bill Clinton circa 1985.

Someone asked why I "emphatically" state my straightness up there; it's because OP stated that "most if not all men are bisexual." It's funny that OP and those who agree emphatically are all women. Even sweet sweet Gay Philosopher, who I have a man crush on, wouldnt agree (cuz he's a dude and knows men.)

I didn't actually emphatically state my straightness either, I emphatically disagreed with the OP, as a matter of opinion.

Now, I see dudes running shirtless with what I have been told are "amazing bodies" - I mean fuckin hot guys, fit, cut, tan, sweaty athletes workin it on the street. I point them out to hot wife, she doesn't notice. I had to sit in a job interview with my hot younger lady boss to meet with a candidate. Again he was fucking hot; perfect suit, perfect dark hair, eloquent, intelligent, highly educated and probably had a hot bod under there (no fat.) I asked hot lady boss if the candidate was so hot that his looks factored into him getting the job. Hot lady boss (seriously and honestly) had no idea what I was yammering on about; she did not notice one bit...for reals yo.

When I look at dirty tumblr pics, I never choose wiener shots; I like dirty pics of women and if there's a wiener shot I can respect size, curvature, trimmed mons pubis, muscles, and body of the purveyor of the penis. I'm not the ultimate porn conossieur but I have seen those gay sex pics and...whatever..I move onto dirty lady pics. I wish I had a purrrfect penis, at least size wise. I would probably post it on Tumblr :-) I envy the perfect penis and body so as to maximize attention from women.


Now, lets say it was me and Gay Philosopher in the gym, and there was a sauna there. GP is like my only virtual drinking buddy on RfM and we have shared...so we are in the gym and no one is there, no one will know...what does Yaqoob do? I wouldn't ask GP to tug it; despite me having a man crush on his brain, his commentary, his being gay, or his hot looks. I would go home and take out any frustration on dear wife and go back to my fantasies of hot MILFs.

Point: OP is dead wrong. And if you think I'm being an anti-gay bigoted hick, you can stop there because as we speak I am setting up for a gay Mormon wedding in Sandy/Draper tonight just up from the shootings and flew into UT to be happy supporter of gay nephew.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2013 12:12PM by Yaqoob.

Yaqoob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what am I then!?

I think you're hot. ;)

Okay so now we have a problem here...

Lulu I just read all your posts going back over the year and your content, interests and precision use of the F. word turned me on. You wanna flirt huh? Bring it. You are fucking hot.

And guess what? I can't quite determine your sexual orientation or gender, but I'd still try to pleasure you sight unseen simply because your online persona is so hot...man or woman.

Now what does that make me?

A man wh0re, I think ; ' )

+1

Yaqoob = white-hot.

:)

Steve

STOP, Yaqoob!

You're making me blush. (What will the neighbors think!?)

Steve

WRONG!!!! The great majority of men are NOT bi-sexual, and the idea of having sex with another man is REVOLTING TO THE EXTREME for most men. Bi-sexual men may be attracted to you. Perhaps you are a masculine heterosexual woman. Even gay men are sometimes attracted to masculine women. But MOST men are not bisexual!!!

DannyBoy Wrote:
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> But
> MOST men are not bisexual!!!

One of the most heterosexual men I have every met in my life (whom I am sexually attracted to and they find this some parts funny and some parts revolting) told me that men are circumstantial creatures. He believes that if no women are available and no hope that in the near future they will be, most men make do and by do I mean "drop the soap" do. It may not be intercourse but if men are only around other men for long period of time many of them will make do with each other in a variety of ways.

He was in the military for a long time and has friends who have been incarcerated for long periods of time. He claimed he has the self-disciple to not have to make do.

I found that interesting.

Your "very heterosexual" male friend sounds like he is bi, but prefers females. i've never had sex with a female; not because I'm gay, but because attractive females DO NOT like poor males, and I don't like Unattractive females. I'm still a virgin at age 52. If I win the lotto, you can pet your soul I'll be married to a GORGEOUS 30 year old female in no time flat. According to recent surveys, only about 2 percent of American males are gay, and about 2 per cent are bisexual. That means, 96 per cent of American males are not gay or bisexual. Your friend sounds like a closet bi. I know that bisexual men often say "I'm straight". I think that gay and bi men both are attracted to "masculine" females. I've seen it happen. I'm not. I like girly-girls. Believe me, the great majority of men think sex with another man is good reason for BARF. To us, male homosexuality is DISGUSTING to the extreme.

DannyBoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> male homosexuality is DISGUSTING
> to the extreme.

He thinks this as well.

DannyBoy Wrote:
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> you can pet your soul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjvW_djca_A

Yeah, and don't slap it.

Novelty seekers will be more likely to engage in mixed orientation sex. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_seeking. I've been lost in the sexuality branch of Wikipedia this morning. :)