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Posted by: jenamarie ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 09:16PM

My Mormon boyfriend and I started dating when we were 17. I always thought of it as a "temporary relationship" because he was planning on serving a mission at 19. However, he turned 19, turned 20, turned 21 and still no mission. He now openly admits that he is never planning on serving one. You would never know my boyfriend is Mormon by looking at his lifestyle. He drinks alcohol, coffee, smokes occasionally, and we even lost our virginity to each other. I was convinced that he must not fully believe in Mormonism due to his actions. Several weeks ago I had a religious discussion with him and blatantly stated why I thought Mormonism is B.S. I backed up my statements with historical evidence and to any "normal" person it would be clear that Mormonism makes zero sense. I even explained the fact that the Book of Abraham written in Egyptian on papyrus was actually a funerary papyrus, when correctly translated. I thought for sure he would come away from that discussion with doubt but instead he stuck his head in the sand.

My question is how do I make him see the light? Is there any hope? I care deeply about him and it hurts me to see him in such a state of delusion. I've researched Mormonism probably too much and my findings have been absurd. I have some really negative feelings towards the church just because it's so obvious to me what a con-artist Joseph Smith was. My boyfriend says he's okay with me never converting and honestly avoids religious discussions at all costs. Would it be too offending to sit down and read "Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?" with him and ask him to explain some of the findings? I don't know how to approach this situation in a polite manor. Could I play it off like I want to investigate the church further but I need some answers?

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Posted by: stillburned ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 09:29PM

Here's some help. Even if he drinks, smokes, and has premarital sex. He's still a Mormon, and the family will pressure him, and you, in turn, if you grow closer or marry...and obviously you're not going to be converted). Don't be dishonest and pretend you want to investigate... Mormons are brainwashed, but they WILL see past that. No, even as Jack Mo as he is, he'll never be okay with you not converting... you're young enough and smart enough... walk away.

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Posted by: DebbiePA ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 09:34PM

This happens ALL.THE.TIME. Young Mormons sow their wild oats and when it's time for marriage and family, they revert back to what they grew up with because that's where they feel safe.

You won't be able to de-convert your boyfriend even if you give him every fact on this website. The only thing that will get him out of the church is realizing for himself it's not true. That may come due to what you share with him, or it may never come. Only you know if it's worth the risk.

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Posted by: anontoday ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 09:36PM

Remember that he's now a grown man and old enough to think for himself. His state of delusion is probably not as bad as you would think. Clearly he is already making his own smart decisions about the Word of Wisdom. Removing himself from the culture he was raised in, though, is going to be a lot harder.

I would recommend not trying too hard to "save him", but simply being there if he ever expresses his own doubts, which given his behavior will probably be sooner than later anyway.

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Posted by: jenamarie ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 09:49PM

I completely agree and I do think that I need to lay off, it's just so hard to bite my tongue sometimes. I love him and have been with him 4 years and can't see myself without him. I really do believe that if he and I were to get married and move away from this Mormon community he would either leave the church or become inactive. It honestly isn't a huge deal to me if he stays Mormon, I just don't want it affecting my life. I've tried to break off the relationship before because he was planning to serve a mission. However, he absolutely refused to let me go. I didn't contact him for about 4 months and when I finally started talking to him again that's when he magically decided he wasn't going on a mission anymore.

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Posted by: ellenl ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 02:41AM

jenamarie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It
> honestly isn't a huge deal to me if he stays
> Mormon, I just don't want it affecting my life.
>

As many here can tell you, it's extremely difficult (IMO impossible) to be married to a Mormon and not have it affect your life!

Mormonism is a way of life. It affects every aspect of life - where and how you are married and who can attend; how children will be raised; how many children you will have and how quickly; whether a mother can work outside the home; how time will be spent by the couple and family (church callings which cannot be turned down); the clothing you can wear and even your underwear; dietary restrictions; long Sundays at church; expectation of children going on a mission - that you pay for; tithing 10% of income - and on and on.

Even if you don't subscribe to the religion or practice it, your spouse would be expected to do these things. Wouldn't you resent the time, energy and money he spent on LDS?

It sounds like you are uncomfortable in the relationship and are holding on because of all the time you've already invested (4 years). That's not a good enough reason to stay with someone or to commit your future to a person.

Many, many of us have had to move on from our first love. It's a big world out there, and there are lots of people to choose from. I do wish you the best.

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Posted by: jenamarie ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 09:55PM

I'd also like to add that he has asked his family not to discuss religion with me and they readily agreed. He's said that if they ever bring it up around me, he will stop them. His family is very friendly towards me and surprisingly did not seem too upset that he wasn't serving his mission. Does that count for anything?

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Posted by: Lenima ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 10:04PM

Yes that counts for so,ething. His family does not seem to be ultra Mormon so I think if you & your boyfriend stay together they will not pressure you to join the church. It seems like they're very pleased that he's got a loving girlfriend. They like you & they're content.

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Posted by: Lenina ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 10:05PM

*something

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Posted by: 2+2=4 ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 10:28PM

I am not a mormon but my son was recruited into this organization by his girlfriend, now his wife. So I say this from my own perspective.

I just want to encourage you to keep in mind, and I know this sounds harsh, but there is a huge streak of dishonesty in this culture. I am sure you have run into this in your explorations already. Lying for The Lord. Milk before meat.

I mean, they have to lie to themselves constantly, institutionally and individually, in order to stay Mormon.

Their version of being "honest with your fellow man" is, in practice, culturally, so messed up that I don't think there is a really strong grip on what it means to be honest, especially if the topic is anything to do with Mormonism. The role models are not straightforward on honesty. In some things they are honest, in some things no.

So I would just say that I would take anything a Mormon says, even if they think they are being sincere, with about two pounds of Morton salt. It's risky.

Personally, from my own experience with this, I would advise you to cut your losses and move on because of the many complications heartaches of Moism,...but I am sure that seems extreme from your perspective.

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Posted by: ellenl ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 02:52AM

You said "he has asked his family not to discuss religion with me".

I don't find that reassuring at all.

The LDS church needs to be a topic of conversation. Important issues need to be brought out into the open. Sweeping them under the rug isn't going to do anyone any good.

You need to know: Do his parents expect their grandchildren to be raised LDS? How is that going to work for you? How do his parents feel about their son being inactive or possibly leaving the church? How will they feel if you never join?
Do his parents expect their son to be married in the temple? You can't do that unless you join the church, and in any case, your non-Mormon parents, friends and relatives couldn't attend a temple wedding.

Your boyfriend is dodging these issues because they are tough ones. But your future is at stake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2013 02:53AM by ellenl.

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 10:37PM

Do not say you want to investigate....you will be lovebombed beyond belief by anyone he can get to you....it will be swift. I say leave if he is staying in. Do you want your kids to be brought up half the time Mormon? Do you want a good chunk of your family money going to a cult? MY daughter also wasn't pressured by her boyfriend. She married civilly. She had many acquaintances and two other mormon boyfriends but it seems that altho they are naughty- drink, have sex - they didn't with her by the way they always go back to it. For my daughter it was later - 3 yrs. - that his family got their hooks into her and it was done before I knew it. She converted. Such a sad thing for me. I had hopes she would not do it.

So be wise and get out unless you want kids speaking of Mormonism all day and all wk. long. And him talking about you to them that you are not a worthy mom-oh he would not do that often but once would be enough for me to be angrier than H___!!!.And the church talking to them about you..... Seriously.I would not allow any situation that would end in marriage to create HIM and the church causing my kids to be separated from total love for me. This is in YOUR control.

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Posted by: Agate ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 10:51PM

I left the same book laying around until he decided to pick it up himself. Be careful how you approach it because it can backfire on you. Although you may think the whole thing is insane, you don't want to infer that he is an idiot to believe that stuff.

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Posted by: grubbygert nli ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 10:53PM

your boyfriend is a Jackmormon - see the post I just did about some jackmos I know and get a glimpse of your future if you stay with him:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1004595,1004804#msg-1004804

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 11:03PM

The problem with the Mormon church is that the followers' self identity IS the church. Its a proud heritage that they are emotionally connected to. When you attack the church, they feel like you are attacking them and they feel that they have to defend it. Don't argue and don't make him defend the church. What you have to do is to try and figure out a way to get them to investigate the information you have without putting them on the defensive. You have to do this in a non-confrontational way

I disagree with many of the posters here. I think there is a HIGH probability that he can de-convert but the trick is to get him to ACTUALLY read the truth. Can you get him to read Mormonism-Shadow or Reality? That's a mind blowing book and if you can actually get him to read a substantial portion of that book, I feel like there is a VERY high chance that he will de-convert. The problem is that Mormons are brainwashed and they typically REFUSE TO READ anything they deem as "anti-Mormon." They really have to study the evidence themselves.

Don't be pushy though. They'll put up a wall if you try to PROVE they are wrong. Just see if you can somehow tactfully talk him into studying it. Maybe leave the book lying around? He might get curious when he is alone and start browsing it.

If not, then maybe you can make some kind of "deal" with him, like,

"If you read this book, I will never try and talk you out of Mormonism ever again."

Or maybe,

"I love you but I have investigated Mormonism on my own and there are so many problems with the history that I simply can't believe it came from god. Can you please study what I have so at least you know where I am coming from? And then I will leave you alone about it?"

If he really does read the book and he still believes, then I think you are out of luck and you are just going to have to respect his desire to remain Mormon. However, I think this is very unlikely. There's hardly any Mormons who have read that book and remained Mormon.

Good luck.

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: August 27, 2013 11:27PM

Here is my youngest son's story. He made the decision you are thinking of making and it ruined his life.

My TBM neighbor and I were in business together in Cedar Hills, Utah. She had five children and so did I. Our kids played together constantly and my youngest son (Dave) fell in love with one of her daughters (Cheryl).

After our whole family left the church, Dave moved to Phoenix and tried to forget about Cheryl. After a couple of years, she jumped on a plane and flew out to see him. She said she no longer believed the church was true, she loved him and they both decided that was it.

Dave and Cheryl had a gorgeous wedding on the coast in Northern California. They both worked and were the picture of happiness. Then she started telling me that Dave was "not deep," that he had no true spiritual nature and she felt that he was empty because he was an atheist. She wanted him to visit churches with her to see if they could find a compromise.

Meanwhile, she wanted a baby. My son was not ready for a church or a baby, so he stalled. They were living in San Francisco and they started experimenting with drugs. Suddenly they both dropped out of college, announcing that they didn't need education because they had both found acceptance for themselves "exactly as they were."

Cheryl said God kept calling for her. She said she couldn't live "unattached" to her family and her faith. She no longer wanted a baby because she didn't have a ward who even knew who she was.

She went back to her family and the church where she felt like "part of something important." She said she didn't care if it was true or not, it's who she is.

Meanwhile, my son was devastated. He never loved anyone but her his whole life. He refused to ever get married again and teamed up with his best friend, a great woman, and they had two kids.

He said he was unable to break his bond with his childhood sweetheart, so he began drinking. He became a working alcoholic, which turned into a non-working alcoholic, which turned into a single man living in his car with vodka for company.

After five trips to rehab, he has been sober now for four months. He is trying to rebuild his life for the sake of his children, but has lost all hope that he will ever be able to commit again. This all happened when he was 20. He is now 43.

Mormonism can ruin your life even if you have never been Mormon.

When you have children, he will want them baptized, then taught in church, so he'll go "for them because its fun for kids." He will make deals with you that he will not keep. Before you know it, your own children will be begging you to get baptized because Daddy says you're the reason that all of you won't be in heaven together. Which is the whole purpose of life (sic).

Better to suffer some now and then move on rather than wait until you are trapped by the unbreakable bonds of love and family.


Anagrammy

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Posted by: lucky ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 01:27AM

jenamarie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Mormon boyfriend and I started dating when we
> were 17. I always thought of it as a "temporary
> relationship" because he was planning on serving a
> mission at 19. However, he turned 19, turned 20,
> turned 21 and still no mission. He now openly
> admits that he is never planning on serving one.
> You would never know my boyfriend is Mormon by
> looking at his lifestyle. He drinks alcohol,
> coffee, smokes occasionally, and we even lost our
> virginity to each other.


Sounds like a prime candidate to become an A.P. to me !!!!!

Now all he has to do is LIE enough to be able to go on a mission! and then he will have it made!

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Posted by: spanner ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 01:59AM

It is better to find out how deep his beliefs are now, rather than later.

If you want him to learn the truth, it is better if he discovers it for himself, rather than have you hit him with it - you will only put him in the position of defending the church or his beliefs, which will more likely entrench him further.

Better to ask him to explain certain issues to you, or answer your questions - like Joseph Smiths polyandry and child brides, and the Book of Abraham and the like. Hopefully in the process of looking up the answers he will find the truth out for himself. But take it really slowly and let him go away and research/think about it without you supplying any answers. You could start out with asking him about the Hans Mattsen article in the New York Times. Maybe- ask what the church says about the issues raised.

If he remains a firm believer, you are at risk of major problems down the track!

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Posted by: wideawake ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 02:00AM

jenamarie, my heart goes out to you - I too was a nevermo woman in love a with a jack Mormon.

mine had been inactive for 10+ years, never even served his mission. he seemed like a 'normal' person apart from an initial reluctance to sex which was set aside (I was his first), experimented with alcohol and expressed a desire to live life to the fullest. we'd had an instant connection that grew and i thought i'd met my soulmate. this all changed the day I got the grave news of him wanting to return to TSCC.

although mum is a temple going TBM, the siblings are all exmos, and in this case, as it was told to me by him, it was a visit from the mishies that spurned this seemingly sudden desire to return to TSCC. I was asked to explore TSCC, even attended church (a totally creepy experience that I wouldn't repeat if I were paid a large sum of money).

as he was drawn further and further back into this crap cult that had been shoved on him since birth, he became totally narrow minded, judgemental and self righteous, even berating me for what would happen to me after I died if I didn't accept this path.

I, like you, thought I could do the investigation thing as well and came very close to meeting the mishies myself - but I realized, in conjuction with the horrible church experience, I was not only lying to him but myself as well.

I also presented very logical, sound arguments (and this was before i'd discovered Rfm so no compelling historical fact, just based on what is right to do as a human being), and they were only met with pouty defensiveness, and him being unable to counter argue or even answer without "I need to ask the missionaries, bishop, insert whatever BS hierarchical position". long story short, it backfired on me, not surprisingly. at the time I had been blindsided as i'd had no dealings with mo's in my life.

I agree with what was written above that the only way he will get out is if he sees it for himself. if, like mine, he was raised this way, it will be very tough. a lot of the stories I read on here like mine, there was a TBM family lurking in the background that contributed to the reindoctrination, but mine didn't even have that and was still sucked back in.

Whatever you do, remain true to yourself and don't sacrifice your values; if you don't stick to your own truth and bury the problems it will come back to hit you tenfold.

you seem to have the position that the church is BS and I totally get that futile of feeling of, this is a seemingly intelligent person and a person that I love, why can they not see? chances are, due to their brainwashing, they are thinking the same about you and it's a stalemate.

so what it comes down to, is are you willing to carry on with these high stakes...yes, perhaps there is a small chance that he will come around, but there's also a large one he won't, and if he is looking to get into their fake messed up CK he's gonna need that temple marriage and if that's with you, you will not only need to convert but be proven worthy (including at least kissing 10% of your hard earned money goodbye, being owned by the church and wearing naff underwear for the rest of your life).

I hope whatever you decide to do will bring you some peace; know that you are not alone - this board is full up of stories like these, TSCC ruining good people and relationships. so sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2013 02:05AM by wideawake.

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Posted by: hollensnopper ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 05:20PM

I ditto the story from Wideawake. I'm a nevermo who fell in love with a Jack Mormon.

He was SO Jack that we lived together for several years first.
He smoked, drank occasionally and loved coffee.

We had agreed early on: we were both through with marriage forever. Our arrangement worked for us.

Then one day, out of the blue, he asked me to marry him. "Why now? Isn't this what we agreed on?"

He hemmed and hawed and said he "felt bad" about not being married, and that after the several years we had sharred, he was sure we were meant for each other.

Back then, I knew next to nothing about the rotten parts of the religion, and, figuring I had nothing to lose, accepted his proposal.

Would you believe, within a week after the wedding, he told me he planned to "go back to church, stop drinking coffee, and get my temple reccommend." (He had already stopped smoking and drinking alcohol.

We have been together for over 20 years now and I have to say that while he is a good person and treats me well enough, he is NOT the man I thought I was marrying. He has become arrogant, know-it-all, judgemental. Fortunately, our respective children were grown when we met so that was not a problem.

If I had known then what I know now, I would have refused to marry him. It would have saved so much heartache on my part.

(If we were just living together, he could not have returned to church...He believed what he had always been told...that if "You" got your temple reccommend, went to the temple, etc, that your partner would be SO impressed that they would convert immediately...blah blah...even tho I had told him in pretty plain English that I did not and would not ever believe that J.S. was a prophet.)


If I were you, I would only consider marrying the man you love IF he will agree to a pre-nup that says he will never allow any children you have to be raised as Mormons. And throw in something to the effect of "if anything happens to you or to the both of you, that the children will not be allowed to be taught Mormon teachings until they are at least 18 years of age.
And I would also get him to agree legally that he will not pay tithing to the church.

(Guess what! He will never sign that)

He is not the only fish in the sea. He will revert.
Best wishes.

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Posted by: snuckafoodberry ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 05:28PM

Yes. Remember. Don't look at what they do or their lifestyle. Their heads are messed up and the odds of opening their minds is slim to none. Doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. Frankly, I'm not sure how any people on this board were willing to open their eyes. When dealing with my people they are as messed up as they come and will be that way forever. Very discouraging at times only because they won't keep it to themselves and let me live my life.

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Posted by: bobkolob ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 06:01PM

My bet, based on over 20 years of observing mormons, is that he will become an active TBM by the time he is 30. I've seen this situation so many times that I am extremely confident in my bet. His chances of returning to Mo'ism also go way up in the first five years of starting a family. You need to have a plan for yourself if he goes active again because once he does there will be conflict in your relationship unless you become a TBM too. I wish you the very best of luck.

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Posted by: Cristina ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 09:57PM

Hellensnopper, I'm sorry to disagree, but I think the contract idea would set them up for greater heartache. I practice family law. Prenuptial agreements about children are unenforceable. But I know you meant mainly for them to agree on those things for the sake of binding each other rather than enforcing it in court in case of divorce.

The problem is that even in the best of circumstances, any lawyer would tell you, people have different understandings about what they contracted to do, and most people breach at least part of most contracts. (except for simple ones like "you do Y and I'll pay X."

Contracts ruin relationships. Each side will breach in some way. Pointing out that we agreed to X and you are doing Y destroys an intimate partnership. Coming to an agreement from the heart after many conversations is much better than ever reducing those agreements to a contract (or prenuptial) which changes the nature of the relationship and does not in any way ensure they will do it, and no court will enforce it. (Not speaking here about prenuptials limited to assets.)

Jenamarie, you might be interested in watching Carol Tavris on youtube talk about cognitive dissonance. She's written lots of books on why people believe irrational things. She talks in one of the videos of the danger of challenging someone you care about directly because people dig their heels in deeper. It's a psychological phenomenon that happens to all of us. I think this might be the one, there are others out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzuvURWpMFE

I think she has ideas out there on better ways to raise a person's consciousness to avoid cognitive dissonance, which causes the person to justify and believe more.

The book you mentioned, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, is a good one. So is Mormonism Unveiled. I love that one because it's also funny. Hopefully you can get to where you can read them together some day when he gets to a place where he can't get enough information to satisfy his new understanding that the church cant be true. But you have to start off gradually without appearing that you are trying to prove the church is a lie. Good luck!!

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Posted by: nickname ( )
Date: August 28, 2013 11:22PM

The problem with Mormonism is that it inserts itself into the topmost position in most Mormons' priorities. Above financial welfare. Above friendship. Above family. Above love. Even above their own spouse. Their church is #1 in their lives. All else is a distant #2, at best.

This is why a lot of Mormon men rarely see their children, because they put the Morg ahead of their family, and it just eats up whatever spare time they have outside of work. This is why there are parents who would rather let their children go hungry than not pay into a multi-billion dollar corporation for a month. Its why grandparents are complete strangers to their grandkids because they spend all their time going on mission after mission. Its why you hear all the time about aunts, grandpas, mothers, and brothers who refuse to talk to someone once they find out they've left the Morg.

Belief in the Morg is like a cancer. If even a tiny cell of it remains, it has the potential to grow into a tumor that consumes every aspect of the person's life.

I can't tell you what to do. But I can tell you that I was in a relationship with a TBM, once. We were great together, super happy, and we loved spending time with each other. We dated for over a year. Everyone assumed we would get married, and I guess I did too. But when I told her I didn't believe in Joseph Smith's ridiculous stories anymore, that was the end of that. It didn't matter that we loved each other. It didn't matter that we made each other happy. It didn't matter that we enjoyed spending time with each other more than anything else. The Mormon church was her #1, and I would never be compatible with that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2013 11:26PM by nickname.

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