The more I read things here I realize that the church has changed beyond my recognition.

Maybe due to our geographic isolation we were different from folks in large cities.

Maybe it was due to having good leaders and teachers.

I don't recognize half the doctrine discussed here.

We would never abandon our poor and elderly.

Did so much change in 50 years?

Anyone else see/feel the same?

Yes, people are a bit overly harsh here. Almost makes me want to go back to church.

Lenina, I think a lot of us feel like we were abused by the LDS church and we come here to vent about how we were abused. I think the question you should be asking yourself, if you really are considering going back, is if you would feel like you were being honest with yourself, considering all you know about the foundations of Mormonism and how it contradicts the Christianity taught by Jesus Christ. Just my two cents. I didn't post here for a long time because of all the negativity. I'm posting under a new alias, because my wife knows the old one. I think there is a lot of positive here on this forum too, if you look for it. Steve Benson, for one, posts some very informative information that is very objective and has a very neutral tone. If I've posted anything personally that is offensive to you, please let me know and I will stop. I really have no other place to go and vent. The one person I used to always vent to felt like I was an emotional drain on her and we no longer talk. I am not able to talk to anyone who is really close to me because those closest to me are all LDS. This is about the only place I can come where people understand what I'm going through.

I said ALMOST :-)

But there are better ways to seek out positivity. I've just been frequenting here lately because it's refreshing to finally be able to talk uncensored about the church, when at church it feels like there are so many things we're thinking and want to say, but are on a gag order from the holy ghost.

I'm NOT going back.

I wish it was harsher.

The morg isn't some country club people join to act cool.

It is a Luciferian cult that programs young children to have conflicting thoughts about what is real and what is made up bullshit.

There is nothing more evil than the morg and no treatment of them could be rendered too harsh.

of an online message board?

-That seems amazingly hilarious.

Have fun at church!

I think the church has changed some.I also think things vary from ward to ward.A lot depends on the bishop and the people. Unlike other churches, you cannot find a ward better suited to you if you don't like the one assigned to you.Also, there are a lot of posters who generalize and seem to think that all of us had the same negative experience. We didn't.My experience wasn't bad, but that didn't make the church true.or make it work for me.

I grew up in the church in the 80s and 90s. It's interesting how much doctrine I learned is now considered to be "myth and folklore" now.

I also am seeing a gradual change in how neighbors aren't quite shunning apostates as much as they used to in the area where I grew up - mostly because there are more apostates who won't be guilted back into church. Neighbors have to kind of figure out another way of coping with them. Many of them see that the apostates are still mostly the same people and often are quite happier. The TBMs have to be more "gentle" than they used to be.

If you look carefully at the talks in General Conference, you can see several GAs trying to focus more on a mainstream Christian message. If this rhetoric seeps downstream, it makes the TBMs a little less judgmental and easier to tolerate.

However, not all GAs are like this. It was Oaks that gave a speech saying that the church won't help you during the difficult times due to the recession - that people needed to help themselves.

How's that for not abandoning the poor and elderly?

Raptor Jesus Wrote:
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> I grew up in the church in the 80s and 90s. It's
> interesting how much doctrine I learned is now
> considered to be "myth and folklore" now.


I grew up in the church in the '50s and '60s, and a some of what I was taught then could get you excommunicated today. There was much more meat back then and it was served up regularly. Of course, that was back before Correlation when everything was unified, centralized, sanitized and corporatized for our safe consumption.

Same for me.

A lot of the doctrine talked about to death on here isn't taught in church, at all. Most mormons don't believe those things, since they don't even know about them in the first place!

Has the church changed that much in the past 50 years? I don't know, I wasn't alive back then. But if anything, I would imagine the church is much more watered down and "mainstream" now than it was 50 years ago.

I wasn't in the church for 50 years and cannot speak to the possible changes. However, I saw a lot of difference between the way things were practiced in my small branch in the midwest where I was baptized and the way things were done in Utah. In our midwest branch nobody gave the farm boys who could not afford to go on missions a hard time. They were considered good guys for caring so much about their parents' welfare. We were a pretty close group because we were a small branch. A stake president didn't have any more clout than any other member because we knew any guy in the stake (and there weren't very many) might be the next stake president at any moment. The branch president was very humble and didn't throw around his weight by demanding or forcing callings on people. Almost everyone in the branch was a convert so when in doubt we acted more like the protestants we had been before we joined LDS, Inc. We didn't know the acronyms like G.A. and RM. In fact I don't think we talked much about "returned" missionaries. You were a missionary or you weren't. RM's had no exalted status. I guess we were just very ignorant about the way things were done in Utah. And I don't remember much pushing to get girls married young. I guess that was before the days of Correlation or else it just hadn't made it's way to our neck of the woods. My comparisons have more to do with behaviors in Utah vs. Midwest rather than as a youth vs. today. But I do think things have changed rather a lot in the last three decades since I joined up.

...where Mormons are a blip, if that, on society's radar screen, and members, since they are so scarce, seem to be more valued.

Things are far different in Utah where the world quite literally revolves around the Church and any member is therefore interchangeable at best and disposable at worst.

There's a massive difference in church culture from place to place. I attended a ward in Santa Cruz that allowed serious philosophical discussions that included quotes from Nietzsche and Marx, and dissenting opinions were welcomed. Alternately, I've been to several wards around Sacramento and in South Australia that openly promoted racism, sexism and other forms of bigotry.

Then there's corporate Mormonism, which seems far more interested in keeping the members in line and the donations flowing.

There's quite a bit of room within the organization for abuse and just as much vaguery in official policy and doctrine to allow the church to deny any involvement.

I see doctrine discussed here that is very familiar to me, even if it is no longer taught in the cult (I grew up in the 70s-80s morg).

What I do find new here is the history of the church. No morg member since the initial founder pedo smith dares teach history accurately.

So if you are telling me that you don't recognize the doctine discussed here as the same church as you grew up in, I can only conclude you are unable to retain ANYTHING.

If the history seems new to you, that might make more sense because the programming/cult indoctrination department has worked very hard to make sure you have never heard of it.

Like in any large organization, people are going to have different experiences. I have experienced misogyny in TSCC, but some of the other offenses that others speak of did not happen to me.

When my mother was newly widowed and wanting to go to the temple and be sealed to my dad, her bishop told her she would need to pay tithing. When she told him she couldn't afford to pay tithing he offered her a job cleaning the church. My mother is disabled and was raising my nephew at the time. She was also in her seventies. I think that bishops should have some compassion when it comes to expecting the very poor to tithe ten percent of gross.

I suspect that people who leave TSCC only because they discovered the truth, but were never treated badly by anyone in TSCC probably don't spend as long on this board as those who are not only angered by the deception, but were seriously abused by church authorities or even worse by their own families. People in that category need a long time and a lot of venting to recover.

Even if you had a marvelous experience with your family and every member and leader you interacted with, the fact that TSCC intentionally hides the truth should make you lose some of your warm fuzzy feelings toward TSCC.

the LDS church (currently) LIES to its members.

Case Closed.

How about the Brigham Young Sunday School Manual?

It was being used in 2006 or 2007.

Everybody and their Mother's Aunt outside the church KNOWS that Brigham Young had more than one wife!
It is what Mormons are famous for; more than one wife and Brigham Young.

But in the study manual of the prophet Brigham Young only ONE wife is ever mentioned! Only ONE!

Also ZERO quotes of Brigham Young about not being able to get into the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom if you didn't have more than one wife!

The Sunday school manual specifically states that it is a study guide of the Prophet focusing on what he taught!

Yes the TSCC lies to it's members.
Back in the 70s the study manuals about BY were about his views on polygamy and how he was for it.

I posted this as a Facebook status recently and it covers the subject perfectly:

"I won't miss you. I will miss who I thought you were." - Anonymous

Growing up, it was a very different church than you see today. It was easier to believe it was something praiseworthy. It was more local and provided more support and community. Things were fun and fulfilling - at least where I was in Mormonism when I was there. Things changed dramatically in the 90s. But even back in the "good old days" it was still a church founded on lies, that still had weird temple vows and ordinances, that still didn't necessarily bring out the best in people but the bully in them. Nevertheless, when I miss church, I realize I miss who I thought it was and what I wanted it to be - not the reality of Mormonism.

Like! Will add to my quote book

If you had a good experience or a not-so-bad experience in the church, that's fantastic for you. A mindset I've noticed on Mormon forums and message boards and with a few posters here is if it didn't happen to you--the general "you," not specific to any one poster--it didn't happen. I call that Center of the Universe (COTU) disease. It's a narcissistic point-of-view, as is wanting a board that has existed for a long time to change to suit your--again, the general "your," not specific to any one poster--needs.

It seems that many people who like to finger-wag about the board being negative, harsh, unloving, (fill-in-the-blank judgment) make some of the most negative, harsh, unloving posts. It's an interesting dichotomy to observe.

To those who have been trained to stay sweet and avoid contention, the direct comments here might seem too harsh. There are more "gentle" boards such as PostMo and NOM that might better suit those with delicate sensibilities.

That does work both ways. I have had posters tell me that I am in denial because I didn't have the same negative experiences they had. Both sides need to realize that there is variety in the church. Some people had horrible experiences and some did not.It is not helpful to deny either side their experiences

Of course it works both ways, as most everything does.

I don't read every post, bona dea, so I missed the thread where you were told that. Do you have a link or the topic of the thread so I can search for it. I'd be interested in reading it.

It was years ago. In those days, posts only stayed up a short time so there is no link. The poster who isnt here anymore was beyond obnoxious..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2013 02:18AM by bona dea.

That reminds me. I had a girlfriend that gave me a book on Capernicus for xmas. I said it was a nice gift. She said " no it is to remind you that you are not at the center of the universe. Then she walked out on me."

OUCH!

1954-1973 I grew up in the church.
1973-1993 I wasn't a member
1993-2011 I was a strong TBM


When I came back in 93 I wondered what happened to the church I grew up in. I didn't recognize it. I thought that maybe that was a good thing.

As time went on I watched more changes. More control. Harsher judgements, new rules. TBM's out of control. Power hungry men pushing kids and women around.

2011-I went online. I wasn't imagining anything. For the first time ever I heard voices that matched mine. I was stunned. I thought it was just me. No member ever has to think that again thanks to RFM.

but I think it's changed a lot in the 33 years I've been out. The doctrine is all familiar to me, but they've stopped teaching some things and some things that were once common knowledge no longer are. It's also much more regimented, dumbed down, and I think more focused on trivial things like modesty for girls.

Yes, this.
It hasn't been that long since correlation really went to town with changes, I was still getting deep doctrine in the 90s. When I left was only 20 years ago, and things had to change even later than that since it was still going on while I was there.

Why the number 50 years? Have you been out for that long? It's a quite specific number, and yet a little too large. Perhaps 2 times too large or slightly more.

It doesn't take very long to sweep history under the rug if all the members are quite relieved to hide the dirty laundry and willingly play along...

You could come right out and say you've been out that long instead of continuing to dance around the subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2013 09:57AM by WinksWinks.

Some of us are a little ahhhhhh older than others ;)

So you've been out 50 years, and you don't remember being taught hardly any of what is discussed here, so what's YOUR beef with the church?

Heartless Wrote:
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> We would never abandon our poor and elderly.

My observation was that the poor and elderly who were taken care of were the ones who had a long line of generations in the Church - the LDS elite.

Your average convert did not get the same treatment.

I caught up with someone who went to the same ward as me. He believed in totally different things. It was as if we had been to completely different churches!

I remember a number of years ago as a TBM I found a board like this. I remember thinking that the people posting were out of their minds blasting the GA's and the like.

I would venture to say most TBM's would run like the wind from this site and it would strengthen their love of the church more than to help them think their way out.

For some the exit will have to be gradual and the investigation and realization of being lied to would have to occur over a long period of time.

For others reading one false,changed, or reconstructed doctrine would send them running out the door the same day.

Talking with my TBM about how we grew up in the church is like we were members of a different church. I think different wards and geographical locations play into the differing experiences.

This board can get very negative at times...but I get negative also after finding the "full" history of the church. I get very upset about it. Part of the recovery process for me is the ability to say negative things about the leaders of TSCC. It's like taking any power they had over me away from them.

It helps me to realize that I was very fortunate. I had very few negative experiences. But then I was the only Mormon in my family, so I don't have the family problems which can happen when someone in a TBM family leaves the Church.

I recognize that I'm lucky. But it doesn't change the fact that I was lied to. It doesn't change the fact that these people expected 10% of my gross income, plus fast offerings and other donations. They presented themselves as God's only true church upon the face of the earth, when they are no such thing.

And although I don't have a lot of negative personal experiences to report, before I ever knew about the evidence against the Church being true, I initially left because I recognized that overall, the Church had done a great deal of damage to my self-esteem.

Once I recognized that, it was time to leave. It wasn't about specific experiences, but about the general damage done to my sense of self-worth. No matter how hard I tried, I could never run fast enough on that giant Mormon hamster wheel.

Maybe a lot changed with the correlation program. It seems any good deed is on a schedule after church approval. If you are a member and can tick off the list then you have completed your good deeds for that month.
There will always be compassionate loving members in any ward however they would be the same if they weren't members.

I did not have that bad of a time in TSCC. I did run into some misogyny in some places at BYU, but not everywhere. I also spent quite a bit of time in a YSA ward and found much frustration there. I didn't experience abusive behavior or questioning of church leaders. But I sure as hell believe it happened.

Interestingly, I was treated pretty well by my bishop in high school but friends who were 2-4 years younger had a much worse time. I think a lot of it had more to do with personality and interests. I was always studious and more interested in more academic pursuits. My extracurricular activities were Academic Decathlon and UIL Current Events. Most of the other kids were more involved with sports, cheer leading and dance team. They were much more social and outgoing than I was. They were treated horribly by the same bishop who never asked me more than "Do you obey they law of chastity?". There was so much inconsistency in how we were treated. I absolutely believe these friends because I can see this bishop being that way.

The problem with TSCC's unpaid and untrained local leadership is that people can be treated in a variety of ways depending on the whims of local leadership. It's a mixed bag. People deserve better than this.