| Subject: | Woodward and his DNA data |
| Date: | Jan 28, 2009 |
| Author: | Simon in Oz |
| When I resigned in 1998 after discovering DNA evidence
that American Indians were essentially all descended from Asian ancestors, I
was counseled by the Area Presidency to get in touch with Professor Scott
Woodward, a “world-renowned DNA expert” at BYU. In a handful of email
exchanges that I had with Woodward, in amongst his lengthy molecular
apologetics, he admitted that he had found it difficult to talk to other
people about the DNA work and that after a few years of struggling he had
reconciled most of the issues it raised. I met Woodward when I visited the
Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation (SMGF) in Salt Lake City a few years
ago. At the time he angrily defended the Book of Mormon and hinted that SMGF
scientists were finding exciting new evidence that supported the Book of
Mormon (must be still finding it). This month in the scientific journal Current Biology, Woodward co-authors a research paper that clearly demonstrates that the ancestors the American Indians arrived in North America over 15,000 years ago via two routes from Asia (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(08)01618-7. The founders brought 5 major maternal DNA lineages with them, named A, B, C D and X. One group of founders brought the X lineage to the region adjacent to the Great Lakes as they migrated between ice sheets across what is now central Canada. The other group followed the Pacific coast, probably bringing the other four DNA lineages (A, B, C and D). In this paper Woodward helps bury a pile of apologetic trash from both the Mesoamerican (church approved) and Heartland (church still watching) Geographists who have variously claimed in the past that the X lineage came from Israel. The X lineage is conclusively shown to have arrived in the New World thousands of years before the Book of Mormon period. But Woodward is not always so open with his research. Back in 1998 Woodward told me that his group had DNA tested 6500 American Indians from Peru. I could hardly believe it. All other research groups combined at the time had only DNA tested about 2000 American Indians across the entire New World! There can be little doubt that Woodward had been hunting for Lamanite DNA but apologists of course would deny this. Woodward clearly found none because those Peruvian DNA lineages remain unpublished over a decade later. Woodward is now leading an organization (SMGF) that has much more DNA data on American Indians than any other group in the world. His group has undoubtedly DNA tested thousands of individuals from Central America including Mesoamerica. Woodward knows that Mayans, Mesoamericans, Central Americans etc don’t have Israelite ancestors. How long he will hold on to this truth is anyone’s guess. Thankfully there is a public effort in progress that will be looking at large numbers of American Indians from all across the Americas. https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/about.html We can expect that data to be published in a timely manner over the next couple of years. |
| Subject: | Simon, thanks for keeping us updated on this stuff. |
| Date: | Jan 28 18:09 |
| Author: | Baura |
| With the emergence of an aggressive apologist stance
on the DNA "problem" as well as the amount of recent research will you be
publishing a second "updated" edition of "Losing a Lost Tribe?" Also you mention that you "resigned" in 1998. I assume you mean you resigned your callings (and belief) but not your formal membership at that time? |
| Subject: | I also want to thank you |
| Date: | Jan 28 18:42 |
| Author: | Deputy Dawg |
| You keep us grounded in the truth that faith cannot alter the facts. Keep us posted. |
| Subject: | I can understand why this doesn’t bother the average member |
| Date: | Jan 28 18:42 |
| Author: | Emma'sFlamingSword |
| I was talking with my friend today and religion came
up. I realized that she doesn’t even know that there is a DNA controversy in
the first place. She goes to church, takes care of her children, goes out to
lunch with me occasionally and has no idea that JS had 30 plus wives, that
Native Americans came from Asia, that there is no evidence of a global flood
and on and on. She isn’t exposed to this in her Mormon world and has no
desire to search it out. Now men like Woodword are another story. How can they be on the forefront of the research and still believe? This is actually a little frightening to me. The lengths they will go to in order to hide twist or ignore contrary information. Why? Why are they propping up the lie? If the apologists would just ‘man up’ and expose the truth this world would be a better place. |
| Subject: | If SMGF doesn't have the guts to to do something with all that DNA data.... |
| Date: | Jan 28 18:53 |
| Author: | Winter |
| it would at least show some scientific integrity to
make the data available to other geneticists to work with. In the scientific world, refusing to release a bunch of data you don't like is almost as bad as writing a paper and lying about the data. One of the most distressing things about Mormonism is what it does to integrity. It grinds it right into the floor. |
| Subject: | Ah, the old twin tricks of silence and obfuscation. So predictable. nt |
| Subject: | What's with Current Biology? |
| Date: | Jan 28 21:12 |
| Author: | Dagny |
| Sounds to me like the editors didn't do their homework
very well. Why did they allow Mormon apologetic material to creep into an
article in a supposed scientific journal? I wonder if they know how Woodward tries to ride the fence with Mormon dogma? |
| Subject: | Just science |
| Date: | Jan 28 21:19 |
| Author: | Simon in Oz |
| Current Biology just publishes science. The article I referred to presents science that conflicts with what most Mormons believe. There is no apologetics in it. |
| Subject: | Your book is one of the most important books... |
| Date: | Jan 28 21:27 |
| Author: | Johnny Rotten |
| ...regarding Mormonism. Thank you. I continue to follow everything you write. Please keep producing more content. Thanks for helping us see through the fog put up by the mo-apologist. Keep up the good work! Best regards, Johnny |
| Subject: | Thanks Johnny...or should I say Brother Rotten? |
| Date: | Jan 28 21:52 |
| Author: | Simon in Oz |
| I appreciate the frequent little notes in threads thanking me for my contribution. I don't often respond due to time zones or time commitments but these expressions of gratitude are appreciated. |
| Subject: | Also thanks for the update |
| Date: | Jan 29 02:22 |
| Author: | Mårv Fråndsæn |
| It sounds like Woodward has come to terms with the
truth, at least within the compartment of his profession. There might be reasons for not publishing the Peruvian data. Regardless, when one scientist is slow another will take his/her place, which seems to be happening. On of my favorite quotes from Gandhi: "... in the midst of death, life persists, in the midst of untruth, truth persists, in the midst of darkness, light persists." |
| Subject: | Re: Also thanks for the update |
| Date: | Jan 29 07:49 |
| Author: | lulu |
| Mårv Fråndsæn wrote: > Regardless, when one scientist is slow another will take his/her place, which seems to be happening.< True but not every scientist has the deceased Sorenson's billions to fund their work. |
| Subject: | For Those Who Had Problems With Simon's First Link . . . |
| Date: | Jan 29 04:10 |
| Author: | SL Cabbie |
| http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(08)01618-7 |
| Subject: | Let's consider artifacts |
| Date: | Jan 29 05:20 |
| Author: | Don Bagley |
| The earliest known human artifacts in the Americas are
found on the western coast of Alaska. These artifacts are Siberian. They
date back about fifteen thousand years. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce where our continent was first discovered, and by whom. |
| Subject: | It's funny... |
| Date: | Jan 29 06:29 |
| Author: | dwindler |
| the Peruvian research reminded that when I was a
missionary in Bolivia (early 70's) we used to get these little inspirational
tidbits from the GA's reminding us that we laboring in the heart of BOM
country, with some of the most pure-blooded lamanites on the earth. Hey, maybe Woodward was looking in the wrong place? The children of Lehi are right next door. It amazes me that when the GA's dedicate a temple south of the border that they feed the locals all the lamanite BS. But seem to hardly mention this anymore in the US and Canada. A million thanks simon! |
| Subject: | Re: It's funny... |
| Date: | Jan 29 09:29 |
| Author: | Ed |
| I was a missionary in Bolivia from 99-01. We all
passed around this booklet that some guy had written about how the
archeology in Bolivia showed that the Book of Mormon took place there.
Tiwanaku was Nephi's temple, Zarahemla was somewhere in Beni. It seems that, no matter where in Latin America they are, missionaries can fit the Book of Mormon to where they are serving. |
| Subject: | Re: Woodward and his DNA data |
| Date: | Jan 29 07:46 |
| Author: | wings |
| Your information is always valuable. After the
"Meldrum Family Traveling Circus" started, I had seen enough of the Mormon
spin "doctors"....and non-doctors. I still am on the lawn chair with a
cooler, watching the Apologetic show! Hugs...nice to see you here. wings |
| Subject: | Woodward-- |
| Date: | Jan 29 10:32 |
| Author: | me |
| all I can wish him is happy hunting. I sure hope that he doesn't wait until he is denied admission to the "Happy Hunting Ground". Then he will surely find out. |
| Subject: | Link to Full Article |
| Date: | Jan 30 02:26 |
| Author: | tbnu |
| You can download the full PDF here (copy and paste the
link if it doesn't work): http://www.easy-share.com/1903444459/Distinctive Paleo-Indian Migration Routes from Beringia Marked by Two Rare mtDNA Haplogroups.pdf It's a free hosting service, and they might make you wait in a queue for a bit before you can download it. |
| Subject: | Awesome! Got It! Thanks . . . |
| Date: | Jan 30 03:08 |
| Author: | SL Cabbie |
| I'm curious about that "probably more than one language family" conclusion . . . I can't see how any speculation of that sort is warranted . . . |
| Subject: | Re: Woodward and his DNA data |
| Date: | Jan 29 18:58 |
| Author: | PhELPs |
| Years ago my wife was a microbiology student at BYU. At the time she was TBM, and she remembers her shock at hearing Woodward express a kind of disbelief in a literal view of the flood. So, it may be that, by publishing his paper, Woodward has simply lifted, a little further, the curtain hiding his true beliefs. |
| Subject: | Re: Woodward and his DNA data |
| Date: | Jan 29 19:14 |
| Author: | Jimmy Rainbow |
| I looked at the rubbish apologists have to say about
DNA a while back - after reading Simon's book. I can't remember where I saw
it, but one actually used an outrageous statement clearly designed to give
the faithful some hope. It actually said something like - 'researchers now
ADMIT to a further type of DNA they have termed X' etc., - trying to imply
that an 'admission' was something researchers did not want to make and 'X'
was used on the basis that they had no idea what it was... and it could be
the missing Israelite link! Researchers are independent; they already knew
what X was (it is in Simon’s book); and there is no connection at all to
anything the Church 'needs', to make something out of the mess they are left
in! The attempts at ongoing deception are endless. However, I suspect that
before long, all will be revealed worldwide as the overall historical DNA
mapping becomes even more complete. Apologists already have nowhere to go on
this and soon the fairy story must become obvious to them and everyone else
in the Church. As others have suggested though - will any of the apologists have the courage to face and accept the truth? What will it take? Nothing I suppose; as the Church will say it is a mystery and we must live by faith. If DNA proved the Mormon case we would no longer need faith, so of course it is somehow hidden from us... isn't the Lord marvelous! Bloody marvelous I say! I would make a good apologist because any idiot can make up the nonsense they come up with. If for one moment one of them was to play devil's advocate, they could destroy the Church position. But they won't because not just God, but also delusion works in mysterious ways. Jim Whitefield aka Jimmy Rainbow |
| Subject: | The only Mormon out on this |
| Date: | Jan 30 06:56 |
| Author: | BartBurk |
| The only way the Mormons can get around this is to claim people weren't on the earth 15,000 years ago so all of this science is out of kilter. That's what Rod Meldrum does because he no doubt knows the real science isn't with him. |
| Subject: | A good example of the normal Mormon reaction |
| Date: | Jan 30 07:32 |
| Author: | BartBurk |
|
http://www.allanstime.com/Spiritual/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.htm The guy just makes up his own science. Notice he claims Eve was here 6,000 years ago. That is the Mormon answer. |
| Subject: | Enemy scientists ignoring mormon/religious claims. |
| Date: | Jan 30 13:48 |
| Author: | confused |
| That was the reply I got when discussing the lack of
horses and DNA. This guy actually said that the archeologists are ignoring
material that supports mormon claims. Surely, if something like a horse with
chariot showed up, everyone would know right away? They would even try to
place better theories than the mormon dude just to claim the bigger award. I asked him why the mormons support the DNA evidence in murder cases, but claim the science is too early to tell whether entire civilizations existed. Mormons are not alone in this either. Those scientific evangelical types are just as bad. They are willing to claim the mormons are lost in BoM archeology and point to man being in the Americas for 20,000 years as proof. But then they try to teach us about Young Earth theories. |
| Subject: | Yeah, Sure the Scientists Are Ignoring That Stuff . . . |
| Date: | Jan 30 14:24 |
| Author: | SL Cabbie |
| But try asking a Mormon apolgist about Vernal Holley's
map . . . Or the Temple rituals, particularly the pre-1990 or even earlier versions . . . Even as Denial C. Peterson goes orgasmic everytime he mentions "NHM." |
| Subject: | Correction Please Simon |
| Date: | Jan 30 15:08 |
| Author: | alex71va |
| Hey Simon: Wouldn't it be less confusing to say: "When I resigned as Bishop in 1998 ...." instead of just: "When I resigned in 1998 ...." When you say "I resigned" people assume you mean that you wrote a letter to church authorities asking for their permission to have your name annotated on their records that you are evil ;) |
| Subject: | Scared like all the rest of us |
| Date: | Jan 30 15:14 |
| Author: | alex71va |
| My guess is that Scott Woodward has been scared like all the rest of us were at some time. For whatever reason (i.e. career, extended family, bet-hedging, etc.) he decided to thrust in his sickle and stay on the path that the Brethren would dictate for he and his posterity. |
Related topics
|
53. Cureloms |
|
|
111 Dallin H. Oaks and the BofM (see also 537 in this listing) |
|
|
438 Reflections on RfM by Daniel Peterson and Comments by Bob McCue |
|
| 537. Dallin Oaks on the Book of Mormon - A Mormon Apostle | 538. What was the Urim and Thummim? |
| 534. Book of Mormon Apologetics recommended reading | 544. Vern Holly Maps Shows BofM Names are of Recent Origin |
|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |