| Subject: | Ground Zero: The Point Where I Quit Wearing Garments and Stopped Paying Tithing . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 02:31 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| The increasingly weakening dam that was holding my
steadily ebbing faith in Mormonism essentially broke back in the early
1990s, when I came across incontrovertible evidence that the supposedly
divinely-inspired LDS temple ceremony had actually been ripped off from the
Masons. The clarity of this crime brought me, in that moment, to the stark realization that unless it could be conclusively demonstrated to me otherwise, the evidence was clear that I had been duped into paying 10% of my gross income to a Church that was built upon on a fundamental fraud--one rooted in the patently false claim that its temple ceremony was supposedly revealed to Joseph Smith from God. To the contrary, the historical record clearly demonstrated to me the logical, undeniable, traceable reality that what had really happened was soley unholy: Joseph Smith had simply (not to mention unimaginatively) stolen much of his crudely-concocted Mormon temple ceremony from the freakish secret rites of Freemasonry. Once I came to that inescapable conclusion, I took off my garments and discontinued paying tithing. To me, there was no other choice. Below is where I found the empirical evidence that essentially led to the gutting of my belief in Mormonism--published in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book, "The Changing World of Mormonism: A Behind-the-Scenes Look at Changes in Mormon Doctrine and Practice" (Chicago, Illinois: Moody Press, 1981], pp. 534-547). A copy of the book's contents can be found at: http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech22b.htm# For me, the Tanners devastatingly summarized the historically persuasive and unassailable case against the bogus Mormon claim of a supposedly heavenly-dispatched LDS temple ritual with this definitive assessment: "Although Mormon apologists would have us believe that Joseph Smith received the temple ceremony by revelation from God, the evidence is against it and clearly shows that he borrowed heavily from Masonry. "After careful examination of the temple ceremony, we have come to the conclusion that it bears unmistakable evidence of being a man-made ritual. The fact that so many changes had to be made in it to try to make it acceptable shows plainly that it is not from God." ("Changing World of Mormonism," p. 547) Additional confirmation for me of the fundamental fraudulence of Mormonism's central temple doctrines came in reading the Tanners' publication, "Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony: 1842-1990" (Salt Lake City, Utah: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1990, pp. 142-151). Appendix C, entitled "The Temple Ceremony and Masonry," included damning evidence against Mormon temple claims from the Tanners' earlier work, "Mormonism--Shadow or Reality." After laying out the plainly plagiarized parallels between Masonic temple rituals and Joseph Smith's primitively invented temple ceremonies, the following conclusion was offered, under the heading "Only One Explanation": "We feel that there is only one logical explanation for the many parallels between the [Mormon] temple ceremony and Masonry, and that is that Joseph Smith borrowed from the Masons. The reader should remember that on March 16, 1842, Joseph Smith stated, 'I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree' ('History of the Church,' vol. 4, p. 552). "Less than two months later (May 4, 1842), Joseph Smith introduced the temple endowment ceremony. According to Joseph Smith's 'History,' it was in the same room 'where the Masonic fraternity meet occasionally': "'Wednesday, 4,--I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office (so called because in that room I keep my sacred writings, translate ancient records and receive revelations) and in my general business office, or lodge room (that is where the Masonic fraternity meet occasionally, for want of a better place) in council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and President Brigham Young and Elders Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instrucing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood and so on in the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. . . .' ('History of the Church,' vol. 5. pp. 1-2). . . . "Many of his [Smith's] close associates were Masons. The Apostle Heber C. Kimball, one of Joseph Smith's best friends, had been a a Mason since 1833, and Joseph Smith's own brother, Hyrum, became a member of the fraternity in 1827--three years before the Book of Mormon was published. . . . "The Mormon leaders find themselves faced with several embarrassing questions regarding the temple ritual and Masonry. . . . "Briefly summararized, the connection between Mormonism and Masonry is as follows: "1. Both Mormonism and Masonry have secret ceremonies that are performed in secret temples. "2. The 'Masonic emblems' are displayed on the walls of the Mormon temple. "3. The Mormon temple ritual is similar in many respects to that used by the Masons. "4. Joseph Smith and many of the most prominent members of the Mormon Church were also members of the Masonic Lodge. "5. Temple ceremonies were actually performed in the Masonic Hall. . . . "Reed Durham, who . . . served as president of the Mormon History Association, has carefully examined the parallels between Mormonism and Masonry . . . [and] has had to admit that Masonry had a definite influence upon Mormonism: "' . . . I am convinced that in the study of Masonry lies a pivotal key to futher understanding Joseph Smith and the [Mormon] Church. . . . It commenced in Joseph's home when his older brother became a Mason. . . . The many parallels found between early Mormonism and the Masonry of that day are substantial . . . I believe that there are few significant developments in the [Mormon] Church that occurred after March 15, 1842, which did not have some Masonic interdependence. "'There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons, had an immediate inspiration from Masonry . . . [T]he similarities between the two ceremonies are so apparent and overwhelming that some dependent relationship cannot be denied. . . . "'It is also obvious that the Nauvoo Temple architecture was in part, at least, Masonically influenced. Indeed, it appears that there was an intentional attempt to utilize Masonic symbols and motifs. . . .'" (Reed Durham, "Mormon Miscellaneous," October 1975, pp. 11-13, 16; see Jerald and Sandra Tanner, "Evolution of the Temple Ceremony," pp. 149, 151). _____ That ultimately proved to be it for me. Off came my temple garments, followed by the closing of my wallet to further tithing payments until I could or did work things out with regards to my crumbling faith in Mormonism. In the meantime, I wasn't quite done yet. In a state of increasing disbelief intensified by a personal sense of betrayal, I eventually met privately with Mormon apostles Neal Maxwell and Dallin Oaks, in a final, determined--yet futile--effort to salvage my fracturing faith in what I was steadily realizing was nothing but a flagrant, factless fraud. Maxwell and Oaks were unable to offer anything in terms of reliable, reasonable or revelatory relief. For me, it had essentially already ended in the Masonic halls of the Mormon temple. |
| Subject: | My Ground Zero came from Grant Palmer's book |
| Date: | Oct 29 03:13 |
| Author: | mootman |
| John Dehlin introduced me to it on his now-defunct
blog site. I read the material (I read it in one sitting.): NO FIRST VISION!!! NO PRIESTHOOD!!! NO AUTHENTIC BOOK OF MORMON!!! just plagiarized hackjob NO WITNESSES OF ANY PLATES!!! I was LIVID!! With a defiant glint I went right over to Mervyn's and got me some colored, normal person underwear. (Ironically I had just placed a new order with the Retribution Center for some new G's.) Little did I know that was only the tip of the iceberg. It takes a lot of work to untangle nearly 200 years of lies and infamy. Recently I saw a PBS documentary about the fall of Germany in WWII. A German man recounted happening upon the BBC news, newly broadcasted in German. His only previous news source was the Nazi propaganda, but now was exposed to an alternate source. He said he knew right away that the Nazi propaganda was false and the British news was correct BECAUSE IT WAS MORE DETAILED. As I have rifled through all the sources alternate from what the Morg forges, beyond it corroborating with other independent sources, they each individually ring true because they contain details unavailable in Mormon sources. Like, why the hell did the Saints leave Kirtland? And for that matter, why the hell did they really leave Missouri? And why the hell did the 3 witnesses leave the church? If there had to be a "revelation" to give the blacks the priesthood, where is the revelation that took it from them? Ad infinitum.... And now at the Ex-Mormon Conference I learn, why so many lies?: to exert mind control over the credulous and power over their lives and pocketbooks. I'm starting to run out of "livid." I wasn't "born in the Church", I was born into a destructive mind-control cult. "Horrifying" is all I can come up with now. But ironically life is better than it's ever been because now I'm normal, I can drink beer with my pals, and look forward to a normal, non-freak life. |
| Subject: | Re: My Ground Zero came from Grant Palmer's book |
| Date: | Oct 29 03:38 |
| Author: | Don Bagley |
| The reference to the German guy is brilliant! He knew the British media was better because it was more "detailed." That's just how I felt as a pre-teen when I realized that the work of secular writers and scientists was superior to the Mormons. More detail, more exposition! There are no limits on truth, but Mormonism is strictly contained. "You shouldn't worry about such things," I was told. But no secular person ever told me to stop questioning. No wise man has ever said to anyone that they should not ask. Never! |
| Subject: | My Ground Zero, found here on the internet |
| Date: | Oct 29 03:35 |
| Author: | ShocknAwe |
| It happened rather quickly after stumbling on
information here on the internet. First, I read wivesofjosephsmith.org,
every single wife's history, which nearly made me cry. Then, that same day,
I saw the video on how the BoA came to be with the Egyptologists'
explanations that JS's translations are quite bogus. At the end of the
video, I had an epiphany..."There is no way Joseph Smith could be the
prophet." I know the fraud sounds basic and simple to understand, but to me it was groundbreaking. It was like a wall suddenly crashed down (broke through a lifetime of brainwashing) and I could suddenly see clearly for the first time in my life. Unfortunately my joy at my new sight was short lived when I showed my husband and was totally shot down. He refuses to see simple facts, I just don't get it. |
| Subject: | He filters out the facts because he's "programmed" not to see it .... n/t |
| Subject: | But didn't Joseph just "restore" the rituals the Masons preserved from Solomon? ;) n/t |
| Subject: | That, of course, is BS in defense of JS . . . :) |
| Date: | Oct 29 04:04 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| A letter to the editor of the "Salt Lake Tribune"
provides a succinct and sound response to the mindless Mormon mantra of
allegedly "restorative" LDS temple rituals: "'Mormons and Masons' "I would like to respond to recent comments made in this Public Forum regarding Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony. The ceremonies in Masonry are in no way descended from the time of Solomon's Temple. Masons use the biblical legends about the temple in their stories and lessons, which is something they inherited from the medieval building guilds. "Back in the Middle Ages, when most people couldn't read, and the Bible was available only in Latin, stories from the Bible were acted out in church to teach the biblical lessons to the common people. At first, the priests acted out the stories, but over time, the various trades and guilds became responsible for acting out particular legends. The stone masons had as their part the legends of the building of Solomon's Temple, and eventually they worked it into their own lodge ceremonies as well. "How could Joseph Smith have found anything of the true Solomon Temple rites in Masonry to 'restore' or 'undistort'? Modern Masonry began in 1717. The ceremonies of Masonry come from three sources: the medieval stone-mason guilds of England, the 'Englightenment Era' philosophies that were current when modern Masonry was getting started (middle 1600's to 1717, the date of the first modern 'grand lodge') and the 'magickal' or hermetic writings that came from North African, Byzantine and Moorish sources, and were also being rediscovered by philosophers and scholars in England in the decades before the founding of modern Masonry. "These three sources get all tangled up, which is why there were so many bad Masonic histories written for so many years. None of those sources had any connection or contact with a ceremonial tradition from Solomon's Temple. "Outside of the details of the priestly ceremonies that anyone can read about in the Bible (especially in Leviticus), there is nothing or almost nothing known of temple ceremonies. Joseph Smith saw and participated in Masonic ceremonies and simply borrowed them for his own use. There was no 'restoration' from Solomon's time going on. "LARA CANNON "Salt Lake City" (published 30 November 1998) http://www.lds-mormon.com/mormon-masonry.shtml http://www.lds-mormon.com/masonry.shtml |
| Subject: | Even Masonic historians refute the myth. |
| Date: | Oct 29 07:29 |
| Author: | Baura |
| One thing that modern Masonic historians (historians
of Masonry who are themselves Masons) have in common is that they refute the
myth that the Masonic ceremonies came from Solomon's Temple. They all agree
that they were from much later (thousands of years later) origin. This fits a pattern with Joseph Smith. Back in JS's day Masons did claim that their ceremonies were descended from the stonemasons who built Solomon's temple. Also back in Joseph Smith's day a popularly held belief was that the Indians were descended from Hebrews. So another popularly-held but later refuted belief finds its way into Mormon doctrine because it was widly believed in JS's time and place. It was also popularly held that hot drinks (including soup etc.) were harmful. The WOW makes no mention of tea or coffee but just says "hot drinks." It took later LDS prophets to "clarify" that God didn't really mean what he said but meant something else. The WOW does specifically mention "tobacco" and "wine." Why couldn't God have said "coffee" or "tea?" This, by the way, leads to my favorite statement that if you drink hot chocolate but avoid iced tea because your scriptures say avoid "hot drinks" you must be a Mormon. Similarly back in Brigham Young's time it was a widely held belief that Blacks were descended from Cain and that the Black appearance was "the mark of Cain." Brigham set this idea in stone by declaring it as a "prophet" and Mormons were stuck with it. Back when I was a wet-behind-the-ear exmo an exmo friend of mine stated "history is anti-Mormon." I asked if he meant "Mormon history." He emphasized "history." He, of course, was right. The more we learn about the past the more it diverges from the picture left by JS. |
| Subject: | Re: That, of course, is BS in defense of JS . . . :) |
| Date: | Oct 29 17:35 |
| Author: | CA Girl |
| But it's what my TBM hubby and mother always lead
with. They say the Masonic ritual was corrupted by the Masons like the Bible
was corrupted by the Catholics and JS "restored" the correct temple
ceremonies to the earth the way he "restored" the correct translation of the
bible to the earth. That's why there are so many similarities. They won't
listen to anything like this post because they have it all figured out -
they have all the answers. BTW - my Ground Zero moment was finding out the truth about the first vision and all the historical sources that contradict the myth being put out by TSCC [this so called church]. I clearly remember thinking "they are LYING to us" even though I was in a state of shock. My next thought was "what else are they lying about?" Boy, have I found out! |
| Subject: | They may lead with it but it still is an historically bogus argument . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 19:47 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| But since when has that stopped TBMs, who never lead but follow? :) |
| Subject: | Plus. It's no historical secret how a Jewish temple operated. |
| Date: | Oct 29 16:55 |
| Author: | Rubicon. |
| There is nothing Masonic in the old Jewish temple ceremonies and what actually went on is well documented. Not to mention there can only be one temple according to Jewish law and it must be in Jerusalem. |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Zero: The Point Where I Quit Wearing Garments and Stopped Paying Tithing . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 04:47 |
| Author: | Asator |
| First thing I looked at online was apologist info on
blacks and the p-hood. Since it was apologist, I was able to put things on
that mental back burner. Then, years later, just before baptizing my younger
brother, I found the BoA stuff on Wikipedia. I had always known a little
about it, but the detail in that article freaked me out. I read as much
apologist stuff as I could on the BoA. Never felt too good about it. After
that, I don't remember the order, but I started finding one thing after
another. I tried so hard to hold on to my faith. I remember consulting my
Grandfather trying to seal the leaking holes. It wasn't long until, and I
remember exactly where I was when this happened, I was standing in a Panda
Express in Fort Union and I said in my mind, "If I can count 10 things in my
mind that are wrong with Mormonism, I won't believe anymore" So I said to myself" 1. BoA is nothing like the papyrus 2. Joseph's 14 year old wife 3. Brigham Young's comment, "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin." 4. Complete lack of Archeology correlating to the BOM 5. Mark Hoffman forgeries and related cover up. 6. Temple rituals = Masonry 7. D&C 132: 61, 63 gave me the willies 8. Navoo Expositor was the real reason behind the "martyrdom" 9. Mountain Meadows gave me the willies 10. White and Delightsome and the other thousands of changes to the BOM And, I was out. I think I said, "Well, OK, 15 things" but it was easy to do that too. Ground Zero. |
| Subject: | Masonry was a big problem for me too |
| Date: | Oct 29 07:12 |
| Author: | confused |
| I know I've mentioned this event before, but when a
new member went to the temple for the first time, he resigned two weeks
later. He said he was a Mason, and we ripped it off. That was a huge moment for me because at the time, I had seen anti freemasonry materials. I had seen the websites claiming Masons were New World Order Cabbalists. After that, I had a few discussions with my High Coumcil Rep. Friend, I was pretty that we might be over-glorified Masons. Seeing the emblems on my garments match those on the signs and Masonic temples and anti-masonic websites really bothered me. It also explaineded the mis-givings I had about my own temple experience. Still, it would be several more years until I discovered the untruth of the church. Kinda funny in a way, I mean the temple is the pinnacle of our experience in the church, and it is the symbol of our faith. It is borrowed from Masons, Joseph used folk magic, the plates were never used, the Book of Mormon as the most correct book was enirely revealed through a brown stone in a hat, revelations in the early church were recieved through that same stone, Brigham was a prophet who taught Adam was God, Blood Atonement and Polygamy, and the the pinnacle of the church, the only true church on the face of the earth is the temple which was originally used as a means to secretly seal illegal polygamous marriages, and its ordinbances were borrowed from the Masons, who in the person of Gadianton robbers were condemned in the Book of Mormon. |
| Subject: | Re: Ground Zero: The Point Where I Quit Wearing Garments and Stopped Paying Tithing . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 07:56 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| My exit form the cult started on my mission. Questions raised by the people in the areas I served opened my eyes. We always had some bull answer for these questions. Deep inside - I wondered. When I got home and began to question - I was treated like poison by members and family. Their panic and fear - and hatred - helped me to realize I was in a cult. I even asked questions about Masonic Rites - and this really fueled the cult ire. I thank the cult leaders for the way they treated me - it helped me to send in my letter and escape the big lie. I also thank my Aunt who told me I was on the road to apostasy for questioning. Hey babe - I wasn't only on the road - I was driving a semi with no brakes that crashed into the wall of lies. |
| Subject: | For Me as a Teen-Ager, The Obvious and Blatant Rip-off That Kept Me From Joining . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 07:59 |
| Author: | SL Cabbie |
| Was from the Book of Moses where the Temptation of
Moses is essentially identical with the Temptation of Christ . . . http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/1 >11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him. >12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me. >13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee? >14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely? >15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve. >16 Get thee hence, Satan; deceive me not; for God said unto me: Thou art after the asimilitude of mine Only Begotten. And . . . >18 And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee. Depart hence, Satan. >19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. >20 And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received dstrength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory. >21 And now Satan began to tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan. It was that "Get thee hence, Satan" that was the final straw; the blatant plagiarism and lifting from Matthew was obvious to my wicked eyes and the Spirit and Witness of the Holy Spook filled me not . . . And of course there was that awful and redundant, "It came to pass" again . . . From a perspective of almost forty years afterwards, it looks as absurd to me now as it did back then . . . Plus it was confusing that Moses was also a "Son of God" but Jesus was the "Only Begotten" but was born afterwards . . . And if it was ordained from the beginning that Jesus would triumph over Satan and rise from the dead, what the heck had He done to deserve all the credit beyond being born the Boss's kid? Reminds me of a couple of places I've worked . . . |
| Subject: | Steve, playing devil's adv |
| Date: | Oct 29 09:11 |
| Author: | byTheirLogicYouShallKnowThem |
| I know a lot of times when I served as a leader, these
topics would come up. Following the lead of GAs I spoke with (likely similar
to your discourse with Maxwell and Oaks), I would counsel that JS received
revelation only after he asked about a topic. And how could he ask about
something unless he was exposed to it first? Such that, the masons, Spaulding, and a host of other rip offs were actually just the catalyst that caused JS to pray about them and then receive the fuller truth about it. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that there are self-inconsistencies, bald-face lies about the origin or source, and secrets. So does showing the problems with TSCC actually convince anyone well entrenched of it? Not usually. An open mind only comes about after a serious dilemma. While showing the poor internal logic of their own arguments, the lies and revision histories can dispel their magic, it does not disengage many unless they are already about to jettison their personal history in TSCC. And this, the narcotic lifting event, is the most likely way it seems to get others to recognize the idiocy of it. The treatment of members to those that disagree is the real catalyst that changes one from Mo to NoMo. Thus, I think the most damning aspect about mo'ism is that it preaches love and tolerance and practices something completely the opposite*. If it practiced what it preached, few would probably leave despite the weirdness of doctrine. (* Except for the incestuous charity that members heap on their "neighbor". Such that they are blind to neighbors that don't prescribe to group speak.) |
| Subject: | You have a good point |
| Date: | Oct 29 09:38 |
| Author: | confused |
| Perhaps one of the bigger steps in my disillusionment,
not in the truth, but in the church itself was that as a leader, I was held
to a higher standard. I was told my Home Teaching had to be 100% so as to
set a good example. I was told I had to do all the other things to help keep
people in line. I did as well as I could - always going out to give
blessings to sick people and being called at all hours to assist and gladly
doing it. On the day my oldest boy was arrested, I saw my Hometeacher and I asked his advice. That was the last time I had a HT visit. Since that time I had two visits in six years from someone else. Someone actually said you don't need HT'ers, you're in the B'ric. During this time my MIL was deathly ill and eventually died, only the RS were there for my wife. Two years and not one HT visit as we tried to keep things together with doctors, lawyers, nursing homes and jail cells. MIL had a couple wonderful HTs, but nothing for us. Nothing. But hey-my home teaching was almost 100%, I guess I (we) didn't need anything anyway. |
| Subject: | Red Herring |
| Date: | Oct 29 15:53 |
| Author: | Mad Viking |
| Mail Address: |
| >...I would counsel that JS received revelation
only after he asked about a topic. And how could he ask about something
unless he was exposed to it first?... No one disputes that Joseph made up/received by revelation the endowment after he became engaged with the masons. The point of contention is whether or not the Masonic rites are the corruption of some ancient temple rite given by god to man kind. Furthermore, that argument is ridiculous. The notion of temple worship and "endowments" was not new in 1842. Joseph had been toying with this since Kirtland. Are we to believe that god was waiting for Joseph to ask about the endowment that resembled masonry, but since he didn't he would have to just give him the Kirtland endowment? Please. I can see it now. There is god with his fingers crossed and a big shit eating grin on his face, just waiting for Joseph to inquire about the masons. "Well, I'm glad you asked Joseph... you see the masons actually have the true endowment in corrupted form. Those ceremonies I have you in Kirtland weren't the whole story. You didn't ask so I didn't bring it up." |
| Subject: | L0L. Got me there. |
| Date: | Oct 29 16:03 |
| Author: | byTheirLogicYouShallKnowThem |
| I don't claim to know the history so well. In any
event, I was playing the counter-arg for the sake of it. But I do like that imagery of god crossing his fingers. "Come on, just ask the godammit question you heathen!" exclaims god. |
| Subject: | About your discussion with Maxwell and Oaks |
| Date: | Oct 29 12:14 |
| Author: | jacyn |
| What did they have to say about it? Do you think they saw the Masonic connection as a problem that they were trying to gloss over or do you think they had justified it in their own minds enough to convince themselves that it wasn't a problem? |
| Subject: | We didn't talk about that . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 12:15 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| It was too sacred. :) |
| Subject: | You should have just offered to meet them at a later scheduled time ... |
| Date: | Oct 29 16:40 |
| Author: | jacyn |
| In the "sacred" Celestial Room where such "sacred"
things can be discussed. ... or you could have offered to limit the conversation to a discussion of Masonic rites only. Presumably, those aren't sacred as they have become corrupted since the days of Solomon's Temple and lost their original meaning ... What a crock. This is one of my fundamental problems with the organization: No one "in authority" is willing to have a frank discussion about these and other serious issues and the truth is labelled "anti-Mormon." I'm finally beginning to see that for many, ignorance really is bliss, or a counterfeit happiness. I think for those of us exmos who were true believers, we left because we value honesty, integrity, and truth more than we value ignorant bliss. It took a lot more courage to leave than to stay. |
| Subject: | Yo, Neal, Dallin. Let's chat over lunch in the temple cafeteria. I'll buy . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 17:49 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| You can buy anything in this world for money. :) |
| Subject: | Re: Yo, Neal, Dallin. Let's chat over lunch in the temple cafeteria. I'll buy . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 21:23 |
| Author: | anon (a Mormon troll on the exmormon.org bb) |
| Let it go, Steve. You're suffering miserably in guilt. |
| Subject: | Let it go, "anon" . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 21:27 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| If you weren't suffering miserably in your LDS guilt,
you wouldn't be following me around this board posting as an anonymous
hit-and-run Mormon troll. You need to work this out with your bishop. Shouldn't you be tending to your Church callings instead of dancing with anti-Mormon devils on the apostate internet? Talk about personal inner conflict. :) |
| Subject: | Funny ... |
| Date: | Oct 29 23:52 |
| Author: | jacyn |
| ... how TBMs can't leave the church but they can't leave the exmo's alone. Hehe. |
| Subject: | Indeed, this particular one has severe temple hang-ups . . . |
| Date: | Oct 30 00:17 |
| Author: | steve benson |
| . . . kicking into a gear and kicking up a fuss
recently when I posted the following: "'The Sure Sign That You've Been Nailed: The Mark of the Beast on Your Forehead . . . after doing a temple session.' "You fellas know what I'm talking about: that tell-tale, red, rippled line that extended from right to left temple across your forehead, caused by the elastic band from the temple baker's cap that had been tightly squeezing your head during the slow, excruciating sessions you couldn't wait to get out of. (Maybe that accounts for loss of consciousness during endowment sessions: the cut-off of bloodflow to the brain). "Anyway, I remember how when I'd finally make it into the Celestial Room at the end of the session, I actually didn't want to leave just yet: not because I was experiencing some kind of extraordinary spiritual high but, rather, because I didn't want to go out in public with the Mark of the Cap still embedded in my forehead--looking like some kind of Frankestein monster stitch job performed by an incompetent doctor." (Subject: The Sure Sign That You've Been Nailed: The Mark of the Beast on Your Forehead, Date: Oct 24 15:29, Author: steve benson In defense of all things silly-not sacred, "anon" huffed: "Get off it Steve. If you didn't enjoy your time as a temple recommend holder then that's your problem. "Nobody ever made you go. You were a grown adult while attending endowment sessions. If you were uncomfortable )with something then you should have stopped attending. "These kinds of ridiculous comments only reinforce the negative opinions that so many hold about you." (Subject: Re: The Sure Sign That You've Been Nailed: The Mark of the Beast on Your Forehead, Date: Oct 24 17:15, Author: anon, _____ To which I replied: "Between the Frankenstein stitch job across your own forehead and the ear-to-ear slit across your own throat, it's amazing that you've been able to keep your head on through your own post. "But I do like your secret temple name: 'anon.' Mine was 'Ezekiel.' Pleasure to meet ya. "Now, give me that special temple handshake . . . No, you got it wrong. Get your pinkie hooked in their right. . . . There ya go. Good job. "Pay Lay Ale, brother. :) "By the way, I did stop my temple attending before leaving the Mormon Cult--after I discovered the undeniable evidence that Joe Smith had ripped off his secret ceremony from the Masons just a few months after having graduated from Mason training himself. No wonder those angry Masons kicked him out of the Nauvoo lodge and eventually killed him, even though he was desperately shouting out the Masonic cry of distress from that Carthage Jail window to the mob below. They didn't seem too impressed. "Thanks for pointing it out. :)" (Subject: Between the Frankenstein stitch job across your own forehead and . . ., Date: Oct 24 17:23, Author: steve benson, _____ Even Admin's Eric K threw his own baker's hat recollections into the ring on this one: "Oh the memories . . . I, unfortunately, have a 7-7/8" hat size. It is nearly impossible to find hats that fit. I am trying to find a Fedora right now and my size is very expensive compared to normal hat sizes. "I remember constantly adjusting the baker's hat so the hat band marks on my forehead would be evenly distributed and not leave a huge deep line that would last for hours. During the endowment, I would keep placing my fingers under the band and move the hat. It was always tight and uncomfortable. Funny that this would bring up a repressed memory." (Subject: Oh the memories..., Date: Oct 24 20:05, Author: Eric K, Mail Address: erickett@wingnet.net, ***** Obviously, this particular "anon" is pretty darn touchy about temple matters. Perhaps it has something to do--deep down inside--with those touchy-feely washings and anointings he went through in his own temple time (the ones he probably secretly wishes he hadn't). The ones that bother him so much that it leads him to desperately believe that if he just bashes and lashes the ex-Mo temple bashers long enough he will convince his pro-Mo self that what happened to him in there was all OK and that his trolling here will wash his own guilt away. Funny, indeed, that "anon" just can't seem to let it go. It must be a living telestial kingdom, er, hell. :) |
| Subject: | The mystery of the temple all fell apart for me one day at lunch with my never-mo dad . . . |
| Date: | Oct 29 17:22 |
| Author: | JackMormon'sWife |
| He'd taken me to a fancy seafood restaurant on the
water and we were having a lovely, honest talk about my exit from Mormonism.
I believe my family had already resigned at that point, so I felt
comfortable sharing some of the weirder aspects of Mormonism with him -
particularly the temple ceremony. My dad grew up Methodist and comes from a long line of Masons. His dad (my grandpa) was a very active, high-level Mason. I never really knew much about the Masons since my mom's side of the family is Catholic and those are the traditions that our immediately family adopted. My grandmother was an "Eastern Star." And please note that every-d@mn-body, on all sides of my family - including me, were/are members of college fraternities or sororities. So we're having lunch and I'm telling my conservative, businessman dad about the spooky/scary/bizarre stuff that I experienced in the temple and he starts snickering . . . WTF? He asks me a few questions. I show him the "Patriarchal Grip." He hoots and says THAT was his fraternity's secret initiation handshake. Then he puts a fatherly hand on my shoulder and says, "Shannon! There have ALWAYS been secret societies with rituals and oaths. It's not just the Mormons who do it!!" So I tell him about the aprons and he about busts a gut, "HELL!" he says. "I wore an apron when I was inducted into the Elk's Lodge!" By now my brain is about to explode because I simply can NOT envision my Fortune-500, business-suit-wearing, sales-executive Dad in an apron doing some silly lodge ritual! So since I'm trying to test his theory that there have always been *secret societies* with rituals just like the Mormons, I try to throw him a curve ball to see what he'll say: "What COLOR was the apron?" I ask smugly, wondering if he'll say green. "Black," he answers matter-of-factly. CRAP! My dad is Satan . . . Shannon ;o) |
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Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |