| Subject: | Some Interesting Discoveries I made Regarding the Vern Holly Map |
| Date: | Sep 11 17:48 |
| Author: | Cr@ig P@xton |
| I posted this in another thread...but it got buried in
the body of the thread. I thought it was interesting enough to have its own.
Let me know what you think. *********************************************************** http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/holleymaps.htm
|
| Subject: | I did the same thing the first time I saw it posted here. |
| Date: | Sep 11 17:55 |
| Author: | wcg |
| Same results. In fact, Oneida (Onidah in the BoM) is still in NY. |
| Subject: | Interesting insight on Vern Holly Map |
| Date: | Sep 11 18:08 |
| Author: | confused |
| My wife was shocked when I showed her this a few
months ago. But what has intrigued her (bless her heart) is that all those
places existed, and were known in the Book of Mormon. Now, she knows the BoM
is mostly bunk, but finds it neat that these places actually existed! In a weird and twilight zone sorta way, she seems to be finding this somewhat faith confirming. I don't think she's connecting the part where these places came into existence several hundred years after the lamanites were all dead. I love that gal! |
| Subject: | I knew that Meldrum had the truth about the Great Lakes Theory! |
| Date: | Sep 11 18:09 |
| Author: | Rev. Ex-Necrodunker |
| Or the closest thing to it. Thanks for researching it Craig. Angola being incorporated in 1873, reminds me of my own city. We were always known as a certain city and then decades later my city got incorporated as the exact same name and suddenly it was officially on the map. That is most likely the case with Angola. The statistics and probability of this map just being a coincidence is like 1 in a billion based on the sheer number of similar and exact places named. It is fascinating to see the reaction of TBM's when they see the map. This was determined to be the "most correct Holley map on the face of the earth," according to a previous post. http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/holleymaps.htm |
| Subject: | I did the same thing...no doubt in my mind that upstate NY is the geography |
| Date: | Sep 11 18:12 |
| Author: | JW the Inquizzinator |
| to which JS wrote.... Narrow neck of land seas e and w all made sense to me when I first saw that map JS had no idea about Mesoamerica he would have loved to have had that data (real artifacts) to make his creation sell even better at some point you just have to go with the preponderance of the evidence and come to a point of decision: Either all the facts to date (DNA, artifacts, carbon dating, anthropological models, 18th century KJV language in the BoM, etc etc) are ALL WRONG and the BoM is factual...or you have to conclude that the evidence points towards the conclusion that a young man with a factual history of con games made it all up. I have faith in the latter....based on facts and evidence of course. :) |
| Subject: | Side note-OT -my brother named his son with the middle name Teancum. nt |
| Subject: | Re: Some Interesting Discoveries I made Regarding the Vern Holly Map |
| Date: | Sep 11 19:27 |
| Author: | Tom Donofrio |
| I grew up in Pittsburgh. I have a history book on my
shelf that tells the story of the 'burgh from the time George Washington saw
the point of the rivers to modern times. Numerous old maps are reproduced and I found Kishkementas in western Pa. Of course, this only means the BoM is TRUE! |
| Subject: | I read that book over 20 years ago... |
| Date: | Sep 11 19:29 |
| Author: | beaglie |
| If I recall correctly Holley agrees with the Spalding
theory. I am not sure I go with that; however these maps were so compelling.
It's just too obvious to be a coincidence. beaglie |
| Subject: | From what I've studied, a hybrid Spalding-Smith scenario makes the most sense... |
| Date: | Sep 11 21:59 |
| Author: | Gorspel Dacktrin |
| A lot of people tend to think that the question of the
source of the content of the Book of Mormon has to be an "either/or"
proposition. Either it is explained by the Spalding theory or it is
explained as the product of Joseph Smith's own imagination. To me, it is much more plausible that it is a combination of many sources, with Spalding's story or stories being a prominent source, among many. This makes more sense for a number of reasons. (1) There is no doubt that Joseph Smith and his amazing helpers/investors/scribes were the immediate source of the text of the Book of Mormon when it was published, so the only question in terms of plagiarism is whether they copied a single source verbatim or whether they essentially performed a "cut and paste" job and put together a religious fantasy book based on useful elements and themes found in various places. (2) It is obvious that passages from the KJV of the Bible were copied wholesale. (3) It is obvious that themes relating to the Anti-Masonry movement that was in full swing in the 1820s were incorporated into the Book of Mormon (and such cannot be fully explained by the Spalding source material) and that Joseph Smith and his buddies were caught up in the Anti-Masonry excitement. (One of Joseph Smith's plural wives was the widow of William Morgan, the person whose abduction in 1826 or so ignited the Anti-Masonic movement.) (4) The hybrid multiple-source plagiarism theory still leaves plenty of room for all of the evidence of themes and words plagiarized from Spalding and, indirectly, all of the American Revolutionary themes and phrases identified by Tom Donofrio, as well as allowing room for evidence of direct or indirect plagiarism from View of the Hebrews, etc... (5) The hybrid multiple-source plagiarism theory also leaves plenty of room for evidence of contributions made by Joseph Smith out of his own imagination and based on his personal experiences and obsessions. In my view, the Spalding theory and the theory that Joseph Smith was the originator of the Book of Mormon are not mutually exclusive. |
| Subject: | Re: From what I've studied, a hybrid Spalding-Smith scenario makes the most sense... |
| Date: | Sep 12 00:12 |
| Author: | Tom Donofrio |
| Spaulding was an American Revolution veteran and he attended the same college as Ethan Smith. |
| Subject: | I didn't know that Spaulding and Ethan Smith went to the same college... |
| Date: | Sep 12 01:07 |
| Author: | Gorspel Dacktrin |
| It definitely goes to show that the more you learn,
the more obvious it is that the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be. In fact, this is a realization that was a major turning point for me. For years, as a young TBM, I was always trying to learn more about the Book of Mormon in the belief that, assuming the Book of Mormon to be exactly what it claimed to be, I would eventually start running into more and more corroborating evidence in support of the BoM's claims. But just the opposite happened, and it was quite troubling. I "knew" the Book of Mormon was true, but the weight of evidence, when objectively considered, was increasingly running in the opposite direction. Then, one day, just as kind of a thrill-seeking, dare-devil lapse of judgment on my part, I gave myself permission to look at the Book of Mormon through the eyes of a person who was actually trying to prove it to be false. Well, that turned out to be the end of the testimony highway for me. It was like turning on a lightswitch. Suddenly, all of the complex explanations, rationalizations and convoluted evidence that were barely holding my testimony together became completely unnecessary. In their place, the simple, easy-to-understand evidence supporting the proposition that the Book of Mormon was a 19th century man-made text could be found everywhere. The more you looked, the more you found. The evidence was "as numerous as the sands on the shore" so to speak. When you come at it from the perspective of not believing in the Book of Mormon, you don't need to speculate as to whether it would be reasonable to use the phrase "steel swords" to refer to wooden clubs, or whether tapirs and deer are basically the same thing as horses. It was even more clear than it would be to shift from the position of being a defense lawyer for a defendant found at the murder scene, with the murder weapon in his hand, and with a record of violence and abundant public statements of the defendant that confirmed motive and means, to being the prosecutor in the same case. |
| Subject: | Don't forget- Ethan Smith was Oliver Cowdery's Pastor. |
| Date: | Sep 12 07:12 |
| Author: | confused |
| What does it all mean? I dunno, but these things are
compelling to me: Oliver was in Ethan's church Rigdon was telling his church as early as 1828-9 that he expected to see a new book of scripture. Rigdon supposedly had spent a lot of time in the book printers associated with Spaulding. Some people immediately connected the BoM with Spauldings material. Some neighbors reported a stranger visiting the JS household. As soon as Oliver came to help 'translate' the work went very fast. It is now known that Gliver was a second(?) cousin to Joseph and olivers father knew Joe Sr. as fellow treasure seekers. Some have hinted that Moroni was really Rigdon* Many had noted the similarities between Mormonism and Rigdons Campbellite movement. After initially seeming unsure of the BoM, Rigdon apparently Got baptized and most of his congregation. I don't know if I subscribe to the Spaulding theory completely, but the Rigdon/Ethan/Cowdery connection is sound. It is really more fascinating than the book itself could ever be. *However JS claimed prior to have had a Moroni/angel/dream about treasure plates long before the plates took on a religious hue. |
| Subject: | Probably why the GA's and FARMS want to keep everyone focused on MesoAmerica |
| Date: | Sep 11 19:42 |
| Author: | lulu |
| if people go rooting around in the Great Lakes, no telling what they'll find. |
| Subject: | Exactly. It fits the narrative TOO well. |
| Date: | Sep 11 20:53 |
| Author: | Jerry |
| And when people understand that and then discover that the places and names are modern but existed prior to the alleged discovery of the plates...the fit will hit the shan! |
| Subject: | I believed his thesis the moment I read it since I've lived most of my life there |
| Date: | Sep 11 20:03 |
| Author: | Anon Western NYer |
| I read of the Vern Holley work some 10-12 years ago
and immediately knew his evidence made sense for I knew many of the
locations in Western N.Y., PA.and Canada. The Welland Canal, just west of
Buffalo in Canada, spans the "narrow neck of land." Ocean-going ships
traverse the Canal in order to go around Niagara Falls and travel from the
St. Lawrence Seaway to Lake Ontario, Welland Canal to Lake Erie and are able
to access the rest of the Great Lakes. Oneida (and nearby Sherrill, NY) in central N.Y. is the home of world-known Oneida Silversmiths which I've visited often. I've been to Angola and many of the other places. The coincidences in names are too prevalent to be dismissed. So many men associated with the BOM and LDS history and doctrine had lived in or been associated with Pittsburgh, Washington Co., PA to the south of Pittsburgh, various places in Western and central N.Y. I have researched my various (never LDS )family lines (never for temple submission) in all these places where they lived at the same time as Alexander Campbell, Solomon Spaulding, the Smiths as they traveled from VT. across N.Y. to settle in Palmyra. I wish my family had left some comment on all the goings on in these places at the time. The BOM is a contemporary work with no antiquity about it. |
| Subject: | one more thing.. I love NY |
| Date: | Sep 11 20:43 |
| Author: | Western N.Yer |
| During my entire childhood, Angola was mentioned every
night on Buffalo TV on the weather forecast. It is in southern Erie County
near Lake Erie. Everyone in Erie County knows where Angola is. It is not
insignificant. I visited a central NY ward one Sunday when they were talking about the BOM Onidah in SS class. No one who lived there in that ward mentioned or drew the connection that Oneida was 20 minutes down the road! The county name is Oneida. Oneida Castle, 1800s village home of the Oneida Indians, is there. Oneida Community of John Humphrey Noyes, another 1800s experiment in communal living with radical sexual practices, is there and was the origination of Oneida Silversmiths. I guess I know a lot of N.Y. history! It's a grand state. |
| Subject: | One puzzling thing, though... |
| Date: | Sep 12 11:50 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| ...is how JS was able to resist writing a great waterfall into his story. Maybe he knew it would be a dead giveaway. |
| Subject: | Apologists really tip-toe around the Vernal Holley problem. |
| Date: | Sep 11 20:49 |
| Author: | Jerry |
| I think he's got them by the short hairs. They use excuses like the fact that a particular town wasn't even incorporated until "insert year sometime after BOM was published" without mentioning the fact that the town happened to be in existense for over a hundred years and was likely familiar to Joseph/Spaulding/Whomever. They quibble about some place names not fitting BOM geography and the fact that some of these place names, like Lehi, can also be found in the bible (why don't the critics just accuse Joseph of plagiarism of the bible?). WTF logical fallacy is that? Their arguments are always lame, but on the few occassions where someone has published a rebuttal to Holly, they are especially weak. They just wish this one would go away and so they brush it off without going into depth, hoping that will suffice and nobody will look into it further. I really think it's part of the reason for the current Great Lakes/Mesoamerica debate in the world of Mormon apologia. The thing about this one is that they know it's a problem. They know it exposes the BOM as contemporary and they can't find any wiggle room. |
| Subject: | These are the same people that say a horse is a deer . . . |
| Date: | Sep 11 21:46 |
| Author: | robertb |
| The Holly map really nailed it for me, too, especially after having read Sorenson's geographical fiction An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon. |
| Subject: | A horse can be a deer or a tapir. A chariot is a travois (wooden poles dragged by a tapir/deer).... |
| Date: | Sep 11 22:12 |
| Author: | Gorspel Dacktrin |
| a steel sword is a wooden club with sharp rocks
embedded in it, and the list goes on... And what's really amazing is that Mormon apologists not only say such things with a straight face, but they also write about them in books that they refer to as "scholarly publications." "Hey, looky here, Molly. This here book says that horses is the same thing as deer and tapirs fer those ancient Book of Marmon times. The fella who wrote about it is a pro-fessor man at the BYU. He's got footnotes and a bibli-o-graphy and the whole 9 yards, so we can trust it without a doubt!" Sometimes I think you could take a lot of Mopologist articles and treatises and post them on the Onion site and nobody would know that they were actually written by people with serious intent. |
| Subject: | A couple links for you |
| Date: | Sep 11 22:27 |
| Author: | confused |
|
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/#enloc48 http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html |
| Subject: | Those are great! Thanks! And the first one is particularly persuasive... |
| Date: | Sep 11 22:47 |
| Author: | Gorspel Dacktrin |
| because it has footnotes, which means that it is quite
scholarly. (LOL!) For more fun, read the following passages from the Book of Mormon and try to picture in your mind that they are talking about tapirs and travois (wooden poles). I can see why God didn't want Joseph Smith to use the correct English terminology in the translation. It just doesn't sound as impressive. For example, here is how one of the passages would sound if the correct English terminology had been used. "I will cut off thy stunty-legged beasts called tapirs out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy wooden poles that you use for dragging things very slowly." I've got to admit that "horses" and "chariots" add a certain je ne sais quoi. http://www.curri.miyakyo-u.ac.jp/image/dat/si/science-nature/tapir.gif ________ Alma 18: 9-10, 12 9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses (i.e., thy stunty-legged tapirs). Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses (stunty-legged tapirs) and chariots (long wooden poles used for dragging things slowly behind the tapir), and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land. 10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses (stunty-legged tapirs or his domesticated deer) and his chariots (long wooden poles used for dragging things) he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them. • • • 12 And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses (short-legged tapirs and/or domesticated deer) and the chariots (long wooden poles used for dragging stuff) for the king and his servants, he went in unto the king, and he saw that the countenance of the king was changed; therefore he was about to return out of his presence. 2 Ne. 12: 7 7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses (short-legged tapirs and/or domesticated deer), neither is there any end of their chariots (long wooden poles used for dragging stuff). Alma 20: 6 6 Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses (short-legged tapirs and/or domesticated deer) and his chariots (long wooden poles used for dragging stuff around). 3 Ne. 3: 22 22 And it came to pass in the *seventeenth year, in the latter end of the year, the proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until they had all gone forth to the place which chad been appointed that they should gather themselves together, to defend themselves against their enemies. 3 Ne. 21: 14 14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots; |
| Subject: | ROFL!! Check out pic 8 "Mayan riding a peccary." of [adult] |
| Date: | Sep 12 00:34 |
| Author: | robertb |
| the first link. I don't think my first impression of
"riding" is what FAIR had in mind. Looks like they hit on a Mayan porn site
to me . . . http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/#enloc48 |
| Subject: | Whoa! I thought that was a family site. I thought you could only look at... |
| Date: | Sep 12 01:10 |
| Author: | Gorspel Dacktrin |
| "riding" pictures like that at a Marriott hotel. ;o) |
| Subject: | FAIR makes major error on the horse. |
| Date: | Sep 12 13:12 |
| Author: | SpongeBob SquareGarments |
| From the first paragraph of Fair's defense on the
horse: "Most scientists believe that the horse originated in the Americas and spread across land bridges from the Americas to Asia, eventually migrating into Africa and Europe. Over the course of millions of years the horse evolved from a smaller breed to the larger horses of today. Near the end of the Pleistocene period--about 10,000 years ago--the most recent ice-age came to an end." 10,000 years ago? millions of years? How can FAIR accept that when the church taught that the earth is only 7,000 years old and no death before Adam. Answering one question just causes another problem. |
| Subject: | Holley was a big deal for me too. |
| Date: | Sep 11 20:50 |
| Author: | Farnham |
| Oneida, Kishkumen, Angola, Jacobugath(Jacobsburg, OH). The link was immediately obvious to me. Especially since the book of mormon says that its place names often came from those who originally inhabited the places. Joseph and frontier folk assumed that some of the town names around them had survived since the original settlers, the isrealites. It's just that some of their pronunciations and spellings had been altered by the gentiles. So Teancum became Tecumseh, and Morianton became Moraviantown over the years. |
| Subject: | Even the name Alma has a very plausible connection to Joe Smith's milieu... |
| Date: | Sep 11 21:44 |
| Author: | Gorspel Dacktrin |
| According to a hypothesis put forward by Walter Prince
(an early 20th century psychologist), it is very plausible that Joseph Smith
came up with the name "Alma" due to the names of two people who were central
figures in his thoughts at the time that the Book of Mormon was being
fabricated: (1) his deceased brother ALvin, and (2) his main squeeze emMA. (Another plausible influence: Emma also had a brother named Alva. Drop the "v" and replace it with an "m" and you have "Alma". The book of Alma also contains several references to "Himni" which, phonetically, is very close to "Harmony," which is where Emma's family was and which is where Joe himself spent critical time during the years that the Book of Mormon was being fabricated. Another interesting word is "Helaman." According to Prince, it is plausible to see this (phonetically) as a thinly disguised echo of "Hale, Emma" with an "n" simply added as a diversion. Taking the hypothesis of Prince together with the research done by Holley, the circumstantial evidence indicating that the Book of Mormon is a product of the contemporary milieu in which Joseph Smith lived and scammed is very strong. More significantly, such evidence is much stronger and more plausible in every respect than all of the evidence and argumentation assembled by apologists over the last 180 or so years to support the notion that the Book of Mormon is a genuine ancient record of an ancient American civilization. |
| Subject: | Re: Some Interesting Discoveries I made Regarding the Vern Holly Map |
| Date: | Sep 12 00:56 |
| Author: | Hyrum of Smith |
| Carrying the concept a few steps further. The name
Lehi could be from the Lehigh Valley in PA. Of course Nephi is easy to come
by with a slight change. The Bethlehem, PA is in the Lehigh Valley and South
of Palmyra, NY. Wasn't Spaulding from PA? Kind of suspicious. |
| Subject: | Nephi name - see Apocrypha |
| Date: | Sep 12 07:20 |
| Author: | confused |
| In the Apocrypha the word "Nephi" appears at the end
of a legend regarding a mysterious "thick water" that miraculously produced
fire. According to the story, when the Jews were "led into Persia" the
priests "took the fire of the altar privily, and hid it in an hollow place
of a pit without water..." Many years later Neemias sent men "of the
posterity of those that had hid it to the fire: but when they told us they
found no fire, but thick water; Then commanded he them to draw it up, and to
bring it; and when the sacrifices were laid on, Neemias commanded the
priests to sprinkle the wood, and the things laid thereupon, with the water.
When this was done, and the time came that the sun shone, which afore was
hid in the cloud, there was a great fire kindled, so that every man
marvelled." (2 Maccabees 1:19-22) The Apocrypha goes on to reveal that "when the sacrifice was consumed, Neemias commanded the water that was left to be poured on the great stones. When this was done there was kindled a flame: but it was consumed by the light that shined from the altar." (verses 31-32) At the conclusion of this story we find the following: "Then the king, inclosing the place, made it holy, after he had tried the matter. "And the king took many gifts, and bestowed thereof on those whom he would gratify. "And Neemias called this thing Naphthar, which is as much as to say, A cleansing: but many men call it Nephi." (2 Maccabees 1:34-36) With regard to the statement that a fire was kindled on some stones, it is interesting to note that in the very first chapter of the Book of Mormon, verse 6, we read that Nephi's father, Lehi, had a revelation in which fire appeared on a rock: "...as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock..." Notice how similar this is to a statement in 2 Maccabees 2:10: "...as when Moses prayed unto the Lord the fire came down...." http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no89.htm\ |
| Subject: | Seems to me that JS invented the geography as he went along. |
| Date: | Sep 12 09:10 |
| Author: | brefots |
| I tried to study what the BoM actually says about it's
geography last week. Then I realized it was a huge task that would take more
time than I have. But I learned a few things though. Most of the time it's
not very detailed and quite unspecified. Ambigous expressions such as "up"
and "down" and "out in the wilderness" are used for direction and equally
ambigious terms are used for distance such as "many days" or the distance
you can see from a tall tower. But what is most striking is the manner in which new locations are introduced. Always the new location is found after a trip "into the wilderness". And alot of battles also take place "in the wilderness". This negates all mopologist attempts to prove that the BoM people settled land already inhabited by others. It's also obvious that JS made it up as he went along. For instance when shilom is found there's no mention or hint that this is nearby Lamanite lands, only after it's made clear that the people of Shilom are paying tribute to the lamanites is it made clear that Shilom suddenly borders to a lamanite province named Shemlon. The name of places may seem imaginative but they fall far short of the naming of locations in real life where all sorts of influences and associations determine what a place get's called. Also it's not customary to name a place in commemoration of a guy that isn't born yet. And then there's the Greek and Roman names that just shouldn't be there. |
| Subject: | Continuation of My earlier Thread RE; Vern Holly's Map |
| Date: | Sep 12 13:36 |
| Author: | Cr@ig P@xton |
| SpongeBob SquareGarments made the following comments
that I felt needed an asterick... From the first paragraph of Fair's defense on the horse: "Most scientists believe that the horse originated in the Americas and spread across land bridges from the Americas to Asia, eventually migrating into Africa and Europe. Over the course of millions of years the horse evolved from a smaller breed to the larger horses of today. Near the end of the Pleistocene period--about 10,000 years ago--the most recent ice-age came to an end." 10,000 years ago? millions of years? How can FAIR accept that when the church taught that the earth is only 7,000 years old and no death before Adam. Answering one question just causes another problem. One answer leads to another question and so on and so on. Farms acknowledgement that horse's evolved over millions of years is Mormon schizophrenia at its best. The whole premise of the Mormon Church’s “Plan of Salvation” is built on the so called fact that there was NO physical death before Adam. According to the Mormonism, Adam’s “Fall” took place in 4000 BCE. So FARMS admission that animals namely horses have evolved over millions of years negates this very central Mormon doctrine… Sorry they can’t have it both ways… |
|
53. Cureloms |
|
|
111 Dallin H. Oaks and the BofM (see also 537 in this listing) |
|
|
438 Reflections on RfM by Daniel Peterson and Comments by Bob McCue |
|
| 537. Dallin Oaks on the Book of Mormon - A Mormon Apostle | 538. What was the Urim and Thummim? |
| 534. Book of Mormon Apologetics recommended reading |
|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |