| Subject: | Mothers Who Know - Reach for the Prozac! |
| Date: | Oct 13, 2007 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| The President of the Relief Society gave a stunning
talk at General Conference last week. Her conference address is titled "Women Who Know" and it's stirring up the Mormon blogsphere. Here are some excerpts... Mothers Who Know Sister Julie B. Beck Relief Society General President "Mothers who know desire to bear children. ... Prophets, seers, and revelators who were sustained at this conference have declared that "God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force." President Ezra Taft Benson taught that young couples should not postpone having children and that "in the eternal perspective, children—not possessions, not position, not prestige—are our greatest jewels."" "Mothers who know honor sacred ordinances and covenants. ... They bring daughters in clean and ironed dresses with hair brushed to perfection; their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts. ... These mothers have made and honor temple covenants. They know that if they are not pointing their children to the temple, they are not pointing them toward desired eternal goals. These mothers have influence and power." "Mothers who know are nurturers. ... Another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking includes cooking, washing clothes and dishes, and keeping an orderly home. Home is where women have the most power and influence; therefore, Latter-day Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world. Nurturing mothers are knowledgeable, but all the education women attain will avail them nothing if they do not have the skill to make a home that creates a climate for spiritual growth. Growth happens best in a "house of order," and women should pattern their homes after the Lord's house." "Mothers who know build children into future leaders and are the primary examples of what leaders look like." "Mothers who know are always teachers. Since they are not babysitters, they are never off duty. A well-taught friend told me that he did not learn anything at church that he had not already learned at home. His parents used family scripture study, prayer, family home evening, mealtimes, and other gatherings to teach. Think of the power of our future missionary force if mothers considered their homes as a pre–missionary training center. ... That is influence; that is power." "Mothers who know do less[of worldly things]. ... These mothers choose carefully and do not try to choose it all. Their goal is to prepare a rising generation of children who will take the gospel of Jesus Christ into the entire world. Their goal is to prepare future fathers and mothers who will be builders of the Lord's kingdom for the next 50 years. That is influence; that is power." "Who will prepare this righteous generation of sons and daughters? Latter-day Saint women will do this—women who know and love the Lord and bear testimony of Him, women who are strong and immovable and who do not give up during difficult and discouraging times. We are led by an inspired prophet of God who has called upon the women of the Church to "stand strong and immovable for that which is correct and proper under the plan of the Lord." He has asked us to "begin in [our] own homes" to teach children the ways of truth. Latter-day Saint women should be the very best in the world at upholding, nurturing, and protecting families." - http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,49-1-775-27,00.html For those of you who know TBM women, has there been a reaction? What do your TBM wives think of this? |
| Subject: | SL Tribune report on talk and reaction |
| Date: | Oct 13 15:25 |
| Author: | PhantomShadow |
|
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_7163322 According to this, within minutes of Beck's speech Mormon men and women across the country were furiously responding on Mormon blogs. I just skimmed the articles and posts about the talk, but my impression is that this is worse than anything I heard growing up in the late '50s. The only talk I can think of to compare is one S. W. Kimball gave at one of the first Women's conferences in about 1980--he told women they were to adhere to the four S's: "Service, Sacrifice, Submission . . . " I can't remember them exactly--was the last one stupidity or slavery. |
| Subject: | I'm feeling inspired after reading those excerpts (ADULT) |
| Date: | Oct 13 17:07 |
| Author: | conformingsheep |
| Mother's who know... Mother's who know.... Mother's who know.... insert mind f* propaganda Sounds familiar to a work of fiction I know. And it came to pass... And it came to pass... And it came to pass.... insert mind-f* propaganda In the name of Beck (apologist/female pawn # 1) Amen. |
| Subject: | Re: Mothers Who Know - Reach for the Prozac! |
| Date: | Oct 13 17:49 |
| Author: | Moroni's Wings |
| I saw the speech. And as I watched my mouth hung open in wonder. If someone has to tell a grown woman how to be a wife and a mother, she must be an idiot! She is certainly not a "mother who knows". Prozac it is, and make it a double. |
| Subject: | I just posted about Prozac and pregnancy... |
| Date: | Oct 13 18:17 |
| Author: | Harmony |
| If only TBMs would think for themselves. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/354/6/579 There are tons of links on Google about this, from attorneys looking for an easy buck. Just shows how prevalent this problem has become. |
| Subject: | "...but all the education women attain will avail them nothing ... (cuss) |
| Date: | Oct 13 19:28 |
| Author: | Just Little Ol' Me Not Logged In |
| ...if they do not have the skill to make a house a
home" ... OMFG! How many "divorced" women is this church going to have to
support before they QUIT preaching this MINDLESS DRIVEL!!!! Oh, wait ...
NONE ... they don't give a rat's ass about divorced women with all the
responsibility of children they were told to bring forth. No ... do NOT
waste ANY time getting an education to fall back on even though the divorce
rate is over 50%. Just wait until it happens, then try to find some menial
job (or go to college as a single mom, like I did), and hope to hell there
is someone to take care of the kids. And don't count on the Mormon church
for ANYTHING (even though you paid into it all those years, including blood,
sweat,and tears). You'll be better off with state welfare. God, this is just sickening. So glad my daughters don't have to buy into this shit like I did. |
| Subject: | And again, those in the "higher echelons" of TSCC aren't on the same page: |
| Date: | Oct 13 19:36 |
| Author: | Just Little Ol' Me Not Logged In |
| Sounds like Beck should have checked what those who
spoke before her preached from the almighty pulpit! (GREAT link to the SL
Trib article from Phantom Shadow ... thanks!) ***Hudson and her landscape-architect husband, David Cassler, take solace in the words of Apostle Boyd K. Packer, who said in 1989, "There is no task, however menial, connected with the care of babies, the nurturing of children, or with the maintenance of the home that is not the husband's equal obligation. The tasks which come with parenthood, which many consider to be below other tasks, are simply above them." They also appreciate the teaching of LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, who has spoken repeatedly about women getting the most education they can and not only to be better mothers.*** |
| Subject: | the "skill" to make a house a home! |
| Date: | Oct 13 20:02 |
| Author: | lynn |
| duh . . . how much f--ing skill does it take to sweep
the floor for the upteenth time, throw in another load of laundry, cook
another hamburger casserole . . . A house is a home when everyone living within those walls feels safe & nurtured. It has nothing to do with home-baked cookies! When I went back to work, I didn't list any of the above under 'skills'. And why did I go back to work? because my TBM husband who is so totally screwed up (but goes to church and conference) repeatedly threatens divorce because I don't believe the same mormon dribble that he does anymore. grrrrrrr |
| Subject: | Actually, I think there is some skill involved. . . |
| Date: | Oct 14 01:26 |
| Author: | JoAnn |
| My mother could do all the requisite things - she even
moved furniture to vacuum underneath, dusted Venetian blinds one by one, had
nutritionally balanced meals on the table right on time, all that stuff. But
it wasn't a happy place to live. She was an angry, venomous person. And she
couldn't cook for CRAP. I hated just about everything she cooked. Both of my grandmothers, on the other hand, had the "skill." They maintained clean and tidy homes, cooked like professional chefs, and could soothe a crying kid who had taken a spill while playing or got splinters from tree-climbing. It's harder than it looks, I think. |
| Subject: | And members say it's not a cult |
| Date: | Oct 13 19:42 |
| Author: | Jupiter's Beard |
| This is a perfect example of cult think at its finest.
It's unadulterated cult think. Does this woman even have a brain? No wonder
Mormon women are on Prozac. If they were to even attempt to live up to
everything the church says they should do, they wouldn't have time to
breathe let alone pee. I hope the higher ups aren't still wondering why
people are leaving their church in droves. If a bishop asks someone why they
left, they should just cite conference talks. Doesn't matter which, any
would suffice. |
| Subject: | She is not in touch with reality: There are children in my community |
| Date: | Oct 13 20:26 |
| Author: | Ghost |
| who have to wear their older brother's or father's
clothes and shoes to church on Sunday in order to pass the sacrament because
they don't own clothes of their own that are clean and crisp in order to
pass the Sacrament. Their parents have a difficult enough time keeping food on the table, let alone be perfect Mollys and priesthood holders. Some of the young men who pass the sacrament smell like smoke. We aren't talking about cigarette smoke. Their homes are heated with fire places, and the smell of the burning logs and embers embeds in their clothing. What planet is that woman from? |
| Subject: | Re: Mothers Who Know - Reach for the Prozac! |
| Date: | Oct 13 20:30 |
| Author: | blindguy |
| Deconstructor wrote: "Growth happens best in "a house
of order", and women should pattern their homes after the Lord's
house."--Julie K. Beck Actually, most growth comes from outside of the home through in-class learning and experiences with others who are both similar and different from us. Some structure is good (it helps with the learning process), but one must always keep in mind that everything changes. Being able to learn and cope with constant change is the most important life lesson that any one of us can give to our offspring--and unfortunately, the LDS church, like most others, fails miserably at imparting that lesson. |
| Subject: | Re: "clean and IRONED dresses"? Um, a little behind the times. n/t |
| Date: | Oct 14 00:55 |
| Author: | Fedelm |
| I wonder what planet she's from, as in the real world,
most clothes really don't need to be ironed. Where I live, most TBM women
have no choice but to work in order to help provide the basics for their
family, so I'm sure they felt inadequate by this talk. If some weren't
already on an antidepressant, this talk would cause them to get a
prescription. |
| Subject: | I got a feeling her tenure will be short |
| Date: | Oct 14 00:31 |
| Author: | z2Disciple |
| Especially since she directly contradicted GBH and made LDS look more backwards than it already does. |
| Subject: | But aren't the talks all "pre-approved?" |
| Date: | Oct 14 02:41 |
| Author: | Just Little Ol' Me Not Logged In |
| If the talks are approved beforehand, then did they
let this one slip through so they can have a scapegoat ... or do they REALLY
believe this CRAP? And for the person who posted about homemaking taking a lot of skill ... yeah, it does ... it just pays shit (in a monetary sense)and you can't really use it on a resume when life deals you a different hand. |
| Subject: | You guys are going to get me FIRED! (kinda long & language) |
| Date: | Oct 10 17:46 |
| Author: | NormaRae |
| I can’t get this Julie Beck thing off my mind now so I
keep logging in to RFM and reading those threads when I’ve got a shitload of
work piled on my desk. But it’s exactly that (work) that keeps me thinking of that stupid talk. I’m sitting here surrounded by working women. OK, from my office I can hear people in 5 offices—all of them just happen to be women. All of them have incredible families. One is childless by choice, one is a mother and grandmother, but has been in a happy lesbian relationship for a number of years. Three are married and have school-aged children. Four of them are corporate attorneys (also, it’s a Fortune 100 company), two are also managing directors. One is a senior paralegal. I am the lone former “Mother Who Knew.” I DEFY any mormon woman to match their families, their relationships and their children up against any of these women. Yes, they make hard CHOICES. They are all very well paid. They have to decide what they can delegate to paid help (e.g., a nanny who picks up the kids from school and gets them started on their homework, a housekeeper who does the bulk of the major cleaning, a gardner, etc.) and what they feel is important to their family for them to not delegate (making dinner, attending soccer games, church and school activities, planning and taking fun family trips). They have marriages or relationships that I can only dream of. Where my temple-married husband got bored with Molly Mormon who “knew,” but was burnt out and uninteresting, their husbands see them as fun, interesting and someone they’d better stay in line for. Where my children were lucky to be able to take a trip to the desert to see their grandparents with their cash-strapped mother who “knew,” theirs are taking trips to Europe and Prague and China that they all planned together as a family. Where my children were “contributing” to the world by being forced by their mother who “knew” to get up too early for Seminary and hating it, theirs are working on Habitat for Humanity and the food bank and things that actually make a difference. Where their children who are grown treat them like treasures, call them regularly, respect them, my children can barely stomach the fact that they had a mother who was so stupid and made such stupid decisions (somehow they were all able to figure it out for themselves). And I have no answers for my daughters who married too young because I let them stay in the brainwashing cult long past when I really believed, but I was too insecure to get out and face motherhood in the real world. My one child who respects me is the youngest—the one who was there when I made the transition out of TSCC, went back to college in my 40s and finally got a respectiable career. I also have some friends who are happy stay-at-home moms. One even home schools her kids. But they don’t have so many kids that they don’t have time for themselves also. Their husbands have good enough jobs that they truly can afford to make that decision and it isn’t forced on them because the meger income they could make would barely pay for child care. And then I have friends who are childless by choice. Most of them are better parents to their dogs than I probably was to my kids when I was strung out on Paxil. They deal with zero guilt or ridicule over their decisions to be childless. So Ms. Beck, all I have to say to you is Shut the Fuck Up! How DARE you heap more guilt, more ridicule, and more despair and dejection on women you don’t even know—women who are just trying their best as it is to be a perfect member of your mindfucking cult! |
| Subject: | Excellently put |
| Date: | Oct 10 18:15 |
| Author: | The Three Nephite Brewery |
| After stating that that there was a nice hubbub over
what Beck said I asked my wife what she thought of it. She said she had no
problem with it and was surprised at the negative reaction. I enjoyed your post. Thanks. |
| Subject: | Her talk made my stomach churn.... (Language) |
| Date: | Oct 10 18:34 |
| Author: | Awakened |
| Mail Address: |
| I was folding clothes while watching with my tbm wife.
I made a comment about how what she was saying was ridiculous, and had to
leave the room... Talk about lobbing some shit into the fan. It makes me realize I'm going to really have to make an effort with my 3 daughters to undo all the lessons designed to pressure to marry early, forego education (for women), have kids immediately, pay tithing unceasingly, submit to their husbands obediently, follow leaders mindlessly, etc. F* you and your backward thinking, dark aged, bullshit rhetoric. and exhale... |
| Subject: | In a way, you are lucky. You weren't a mother who knows! YOU |
| Date: | Oct 10 18:43 |
| Author: | Matt |
| were ***a mother who found out.*** :oD |
| Subject: | Thanks Matt |
| Date: | Oct 10 19:02 |
| Author: | NormaRae |
| I'd love to have a nickel for every time I said "I know." Life has sure been a lot better since I "found out" that I "knew" nothing. |
| Subject: | OMG, I love this post. I'm glad you stopped working to write it. |
| Date: | Oct 10 18:59 |
| Author: | Carrie Oakie |
| You are a person I *really* want to call SISTAH! I am printing this out. It's a keeper. |
| Subject: | Happy women have choices |
| Date: | Oct 10 21:21 |
| Author: | In the Know |
| I like your point that women are smart enough to make
good choices. Even high powered women most often try to make the choices
that are best for their children and family. So what if someone else cleans
the house, are the children going to be psychologically damaged because of
it? And what if a stay-at-home mom only wants to have one pre-schooler at
home so they can give them the attention they want to give them. It's the
one-plan-fits-all mentality of motherhood that keeps the pharmaceutical
companies in business. And if I want to devote all my love and energy to my
damn dog, that should be my CHOICE! |
| Subject: | Re: Happy women have choices |
| Date: | Oct 11 00:12 |
| Author: | notamo |
| Happy women are fulfilled women. Women who have the
choices to decide what makes them fulfilled. I was happy to stay at home with my two children. I enjoyed it. Many of my friends couldn't wait for their children to go to school so they could get back to their careers. Funny how men aren't considered to need a "one size fits all " job. They can be anything they like depending on their potential. Why is it so difficult for the powers that be in the Morg to realise women are no different? |
| Subject: | I know what you're saying |
| Date: | Oct 10 21:40 |
| Author: | munchybotaz |
| but I wonder if the lens through which you see your
co-workers is foggy or maybe a little too rosy. I guarantee you each and
every one is struggling or has struggled with something - guilt over leaving
the kids, competitive/resentful husband, cheating/abusive husband or
boyfriend, financial probs, substance abuse, whatever. Everyone has at least
one secret. You might be surprised to learn what you have in common and what
they admire about you. :-) |
| Subject: | Truth is Simple Isn't It |
| Date: | Oct 11 01:17 |
| Author: | hutch |
| The Church relies on cliches, mindless obedience (aka
faith),guilt, meaningless ceremonies, hierarchies, and all sorts of really
complicated and convoluted doctrines and promises and ceremonies in order to
teach what they claim to be "plain and simple" truth. When just as NormaRae pointed out, truth is really simple and self-evident. It doesn't take a genius to see that these strong women in her office were living fulfilling lives which are the result of making right logical decisions. Living a fulfilling life has NOTHING to do with weird ceremonies, faith, or magic. A fulfilling life comes from working to reach one's potential, to love and be loved by those you care about. The truth is simple and brilliant. There is NO TRUTH in the MORG. It just uses convoluted explanations, demands of faith and obedience as a smokescreen for teachings that really don't make any sense. It is true that we make our own decisions and should be responsible for them but it is also irrefutable that one's religion plays a large part in influencing these choices particularly when the religion is as intrusive and all encompassing as Mormonism. After all, what other religioni dictates what type of underwear you can wear, how you can have sex, who can or cannot attend your wedding, how many earrings you can have, and how much facial hair men can have. I can credit the MORG for encouraging me to get married early, pump out a bunch of kids, and to send my sons to the lame scout programs organized by the Church out of guilt. I immediately regained at least 14% of my time after I quit the MORG and also recouped quite a bit of income (even though I wasn't paying 10% before I quit I did lose the occasional several thousand that I paid out of guilt when tithing settlement got close) I encourage everyone who is doubting to get out and really "investigate" the Church. Find out the truth and then have the guts to make the choice that their findings lead them to. |
| Subject: | Re: You guys are going to get me FIRED! (kinda long & language) |
| Date: | Oct 11 04:24 |
| Author: | Markos |
| Don't be so hard on yourself. The grass often seems greener on the other side. Especially when you are depressed. But don't assume that life is nothing but daisies for every never-mo around you. Everyone struggles at some point. And don't accept that your bad experience with morgdom has some how ruined your life. The church had a lot less power over you then they led you to believe and you have more power to control your life then you give yourself credit for. |
| Subject: | I'm not sitting here being hard on myself |
| Date: | Oct 11 08:15 |
| Author: | NormaRae |
| As I said... I DID take control of my life. I DID get
myself out of that mindset. I DID go back and get my degree. I DID move out
of Utah, all the way across the country. I DID get a job that is fulfilling
to me. I DID get myself out of a joke of a marriage. I am very active in a
UU congregation because it works for me, it has given me a lot of friends
who think a lot like me. I have little free time and I certainly don't sit
around feeling sorry for myself. That is NOT what this post is about. However, I do have a very volitile relationship with some of my children and I've had to accept that some of that is due to decisions I made in the past (that I attribute to the mindset that Ms. Beck is trying to force on women) that I cannot go back and change. I'm estranged from most of my extended family because of my apostasy and there is just nothing I can do about how they think. And no I do not idolize these women I work with and I do know they have challenges of their own. I was just making the point that they have the successful, close families that Ms. Beck is trying to make Mormon women think they are the only ones who can have that. More than that, their families' closeness is not as superficial as my Mormon family's was and as I believe most mormon families are. One woman I work with cracks me up--you can always tell when it's her husband who calls her in the middle of the day because after almost 20 years of marriage, he still makes her laugh. I'd take that kind of relationship over someone who looks at me as a baby machine any day. |
| Subject: | Re: I'm not sitting here being hard on myself -- I "get it" |
| Date: | Oct 11 15:31 |
| Author: | rgg |
| I couldn’t agree with you more! I get what you are
saying… I too think the morgue creates superficial families. I grew up in the morgue, BIC, parents married in the SLC Temple, have five siblings, My mom was a SAHM, she made homemade bread, sewed our clothes etc., etc., yet, I have ZERO memories of a loving and close family – its as if we were all simply “Going through the motions”…and now that we are all grown, my siblings and I have NOTHING to say to one another, as we have zero in common and we never developed true bonds with one another. My younger sister is a TBM, has three children, is a SAHM and they are soooooooooo poor that her TBM DH has a newspaper route to pay the tithing! My sister has a college degree in communications; she could get a great fulltime job if she wanted to which would help her children SO MUCH MORE THAN BY STAYING AT HOME. Her kids are all in school. They don’t even have two nickels to rub together yet, my TBM mom is so proud of her in that she is following “the gospel”…GAG. I was a single parent and did not raise my son in any religion and I am closer to my son then I ever was with my parents. I worked fulltime and he was in day care yet, we had a lot of QUALITY time together --- still do, and now he has children of his own and we are one big happy family! Not perfect, nothing is but nothing gets in the way of our love for one another and we all encourage each other to have FULFILLING lives… |
| Subject: | Re: You guys are going to get me FIRED! (kinda long & language) |
| Date: | Oct 11 08:27 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| Don't cha know the cult has dibbs on the pathway of
happiness. No one could possibly enjoy life unless they are a cult member -
devoting their life to a lie that gives NOTHING back to the giver. Who in
the cult has the peace the brethern talk about. The only peace - is when the
guilt and shame - the cult heaps on people - disipates - when one leaves the
cult lie. |
| Subject: | Well put! How about this description of Mormon life? |
| Date: | Oct 11 09:15 |
| Author: | T-bone |
| I am laughing and crying at the same time. How dare anybody heap more guilt on an already guilt-laden class - Mormon women? We all know the pressure that is put on them to be pure (be a virgin on your wedding night), cook, bake, manage the finances, and be frugal, and be loyal to your husband. After having 5 or 6 children (which is really not enough) don't you dare put on a few pounds. You can never make your children behave well enough. You have to bring quiet toys, quiet food, and drinks that won't stain the chapel carpet, you have to be able to sew, make jam, do homework for all the children, prepare a science project, make sure every child is at soccer practice on time, and cook dinner for 20 tonight. Now your kids have to be up and dressed, looking like the perfect Mormon family and in the chapel by 9 am Sunday morning while your husband is in a meeting with the bishop. Good luck! DH will give you a blessing if you are having a hard time accepting this most special role. If you ever get frustrated because you have 2 children in diapers at the same time, you have to prepare your lessons, have family home evening, prepare a talk, plan your daughter's wedding, send one kid to college and one on a mission, you're a horrible person! If any of your children gets in trouble, it's all your fault! Your home still has to look like a Better Homes and Gardens magazine on your budget - and if it doesn't, it's your fault! Even if you accomplish all of the above with a smile, you're still not doing it right! That's the message LDS women are getting. In the mean time, elders, get a job and work a lot so you don't have to deal with all the petty stuff your wife can take care of. And what the hell is wrong with your wife? She doesn't even have to work. This message brought to you by prozac. T-Bone |
| Subject: | T-bone...that was so good. How about adding... |
| Date: | Oct 11 14:54 |
| Author: | Crystal Song |
| bake bread after grinding your own flour from the wheat you have stored under the bed? And support your husband in his career. (Your own isn't important.) |
| Subject: | "Judging their outsides by our insides" ... part of the brainwashing, to be sure! |
| Date: | Oct 11 09:22 |
| Author: | Deborah |
| To always feel that we'll never be good enough, even
if we turn ourselves inside out and our lives upside down. Can you go for a walk at lunch and let this legitimate anger work out of you? Taking away the LAST of their power over you ... one step at a time.... |
| Subject: | what an AWESOME post. Thanks NormaRae! This was the first conference ... |
| Date: | Oct 11 09:22 |
| Author: | MC Blind |
| that my wife an I missed. AND I AM SO GLAD!!!!! That
talk is the kind of CRAP that brought my wife to tears so many times. Screw
you Ms. Beck, and your little cult too. It was SO NICE to skip conference, and in the future, I shall skip many more! :) |
| Subject: | Check the Pemise. |
| Date: | Oct 11 14:40 |
| Author: | Long Tooth |
| Check the Premise. There are unknown numbers of valiant spirits in heaven waiting to be born to good LDS families, where they will be taught the gospel by righteous parents. According to our leaders if you fail to provide tabernacles for these little ones you may force them to be born in darkest Africa or some other like place. You would not want that would you? |
| Subject: | Re: Check the Pemise. |
| Date: | Oct 11 15:29 |
| Author: | rhonda |
| That type of logic is like when your mother used to
say "clean your plate because there are starving people in China." What,
were you supposed to send your uneaten peas to China? If you feel that way, why don't you help the babies that are currently being born in Africa, or help the women there learn about birth control? Having more babies here in the US won't stop more babies from being born in Africa. Silly silly logic! |
| Subject: | Brava! Brava! (wcg: giving you a standing ovation) |
| Date: | Oct 11 15:05 |
| Author: | wine country girl |
| Well said, my dear. Now, send this to the SL Tribune as a letter to the editor, that all may receive it. |
| Subject: | Rhonda, here's a link for you |
| Date: | Oct 11 16:13 |
| Author: | St. Fu |
| But you have to scroll down past a TBM's glowing
comments on the talk. Fair warning. http://mcqesq.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/pres-julie-beck/ |
| Subject: | Re: Congratulations, Norma Rae... |
| Date: | Oct 11 16:36 |
| Author: | Hap E. Heretic |
| Congratulations, Norma Rae---you're a woman who REALLY knows...the TRUTH! More power to you, my dear! |
| Subject: | One Sentence From Julie Beck tells it all - THIS IS THE PLACE! |
| Date: | Oct 10 10:01 |
| Author: | tol |
| "Mothers who know desire to bear children, whereas in
many cultures of the world children are becoming less valued. In the culture
of the gospel, we still believe in having children." Julie Beck, Conference
2007 This is the place for arrogant stereotyping of "many cultures" (who are these cultures that she thinks she knows so much about and is in a position to judge their worthiness) and creating the uniformed opinion in Mormons of being better, chosen, and "righter." This is the place for confinement. Women are confined to a very narrow per-determined role. For women who can not have or who do not want children, these women are once again outside of their families and culture. These women are marginalized and minimized. This is the place for "us versus them." Because I do not choose the Mormon way of life, because I do not endorse using less resources (ironic - because larger families use more) in justification of have children, I am "them" to my family. This is a destructive, anti-family teaching. This is the place where people who don't know, know. Mormons know the church is true, that there is no thing as global warming - or if there is God will return before Utah (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7133901 ) destroys Utah and contributes more than any other group to the destruction of the environment. Mormons are encouraged to not read anything not Mormon(lest they leave the gospel), are taught that anyone not Mormon is not quite as smart as say someone like GBH or even their Bishop - regardless of education or training or experience, to not listen to anyone who is not Mormon and then to proclaim - "I know." I know what good mothers should know - I know what people should not drink - coffee and wine! - I know that people should marry young and quickly and facts, figures, and evidence have no influence on me. I know! This is the place where someone else has the right to tell you how to live, when to marry, what your true orientation is (if you have a penis - you prefer women for sexual partners - period!), what church position you will "volunteer" for, if you should have a career (do you have a vagina - you should not have a career!), how you should feel, what you should think, what you should know, and every minute, mundane detail of your life - someone else should tell you how, when, where, why you should live. This is the place where the lines are clearly drawn over who is "righteous" and who isn't. The culture of the gospel is one where women are traditional, conventional, obedient to a man, and must do as they are told. This is the place - and Julie Beck - in one sentence said it all. We can not help but tell the truth, even when we are lying. Thank you Julie for reminding me what kind of place Utah really is! |
| Subject: | Re: One Sentence From Julie Beck tells it all - THIS IS THE PLACE! |
| Date: | Oct 10 11:48 |
| Author: | been through it |
| To be a smidge more accurate she could have said
"NUMBERS of children" are valued. I had two trips to Utah recently after an absence of 15 years. It was shocking to me how the millions of kiddies run around like savages, often getting themselves into inappropriate and dangerous situations, while parents chat away. No one seemed bothered but me. In my non-mo world, children come in small numbers. The one or two per family are petted, supervised, listened to, planned for and I don't mean the pregnancy, I mean the child's life is planned out in re college, activities, learning experiences and so forth. These children from small families seem incredibly valued to me, nay, even treasured. ;) Those mobs of Utah kiddies seemed like so many autumn leaves blowing around. Not valued at all except in, perhaps, the aggregate of their existence. I have no doubt at all the parents I know would never leave their children with one of those families for babysitting or for even play dates. |
| Subject: | number of children is right on.... |
| Date: | Oct 10 12:06 |
| Author: | Chad (Swedeboy) Spjut |
| As a father of five, I look at my decisions as
reckless and without deep thought for the present and for the future. Having
children was something we were told we MUST do in order to be obedient to
Mormon doctrines and prophetic utterance, so we had five. After all, the
Lord was going to step in and help us raise, feed, clothe and teach our
little ones. They were his children, all I was doing was acting in
accordance with commandment in partnership with him. By the way, he's a
shitty parental partner! While I love each of them, I know that I am not really able to be as good a father to them due to the size of our brood. It is very difficult to spend individual time with each child, nurturing, caring, loving and listening to them. Many times I feel that it will be a miracle that they get out of our house alive, let alone well prepared for their futures. People wonder how we can be so angry when we discover the fraud of Mormonism. Every step, every thought, and almost every decision was based on Mormonism and its validity. It influenced where we lived, how large our family, whom we should marry, and on and on and on. Children deserve much better than this. They don't deserve to be raised in Mormonism, they deserve so MUCH more! -Chad |
| Subject: | while I totally agree with most of this post |
| Date: | Oct 10 13:23 |
| Author: | tol |
| the one thing I might take exception is I bet your children will be amazing and successful - because they are very lucky to have two amazing parents!! |
| Subject: | Re: number of children is right on.... |
| Date: | Oct 10 13:29 |
| Author: | been through it |
| Your post is heartrending, Chad. But I agree with Tol.
Furthermore, I know that when your children become mature adults, they will have compassion for you. The older they get, the more they will admire the brave choices you made and appreciate how those choices benefited them. |
| Subject: | Nail on the %^# %&^% head |
| Date: | Oct 10 13:41 |
| Author: | Steve |
| Mormons value children LESS than "them" others, not
more. My kids were shocked on a visit to Utah (their first) a couple of years ago to see the way kids acted and how they ran around unsupervised. (5-7 year old kids crossing state highways among other things) They asked me, "don't these kids have any parents?" I told them, yes they did, but mormons have more kids than they can take care of so the kids are not properly raised. Last spring there was this family on my youngest kids baseball team with three kids in addition to the one playing. Either the mom or the dad would show up with extra kids in tow and just let them run wild. These were kids from 1-5. The five year old would climb up the backstop to a height fo about 15 feet . . . in boots. WTF! the one year old would climb on the bleachers unattended, and was always falling and hurting itself. Their bad parenting was more understandable about 3 weeks into the season when the mom showed up to a game wearing a BYU sweatshirt. |
| Subject: | Agreed |
| Date: | Oct 10 14:14 |
| Author: | NormaRae |
| I have a friend who recently told me that her first
real introduction to Mormonism was when they lived in Texas and they went to
the funeral for 2 sons of a guy her husband worked with. Apparently it had
been a murder/suicide--one brother killed the other and then killed himself. She said it was the weirdest funeral she had ever been to. She couldn't even imagine how the parents were functioning and knew that as a parent herself, she would probably be totally inconsolable. But she said these parents were just acting like it was some normal occasion and the father spoke at the funeral and all he spoke about was the blessing of the soon-to-be-opened San Antonio temple. She asked me if Mormon parents are expected to have a standoffish relationship with their children. I told her that her story did not surprise me, that I'd been to other funerals of Mormon children and they were freakishly un-mournful, but I explained to her that sometimes they feel like they are expected to act that way and showing emotion about your child's death means you're not righteous and don't understand the "plan of salvation." But it could also be just a function that we were taught to value our children more as a possession and not something we need to cherish and nurture. What kind of normal parents would send their 19-year-old kids off to a third-world country and be ok with the fact that they're told they can only talk to them twice a year. Yet Mormon's get all excited to put their kid on that plane and if they come home in a box they are a stoic as my friend's co-worker. And that is someone who "values" their children? |
| Subject: | Re: One Sentence From Julie Beck tells it all - THIS IS THE PLACE! |
| Date: | Oct 10 13:58 |
| Author: | Doubting Thomasina |
| I've seen some large families that work really
well--but they are a rarity. Sister Beck is going to lecture more women
right out of the church. Several of my TBM freinds and neighbors were really
depressed or angered by her talk. Yup, the tighter a crip the old boys in Salt Lake try to around members, the more will slip through their fingers. |
| Subject: | I hear you! So glad that I got my daughter out just in time! She, |
| Date: | Oct 10 14:16 |
| Author: | MexMom |
| junior, sometimes worries about whether to have children or not in the future. I have to remind her that it is her choice and SHE will make it. She was in YM long enough to still here the voice in her head telling her to have umptine children. Thanks for your post! |
| Subject: | Chad, just think how much MORE TIME you have to spend |
| Date: | Oct 10 15:22 |
| Author: | cl2 |
| with your five children now. Pat yourself on the back
for that. I am the single mother to twins. He left when they were 10. Even with all we have been through, our kids still want to be around us, go places with BOTH OF US. Their TBM cousins have next to nothing to do with their parents. They will be 22 soon. I found the time working two jobs and raising them pretty much alone for several years to spend much more time with them that my parents had for us. AND my kids are still close to their dad after his "bad" years of trying to find himself. The most important thing you did for your kids is to GET OUT OF MORMONISM. I've got my daughter back in it--but she always talks about how she will never have more than two children. She works at a local theater and she is aghast when she sees parents come in with 5 or 6 little kids under 10 (or younger). |
| Subject: | I know. Case closed. Mind closed. |
| Date: | Oct 10 15:30 |
| Author: | forestpal |
| My mother was like that. It made my blood run cold when Beck said to the women, "Now, that is POWER!" |
| Subject: | The Mormons' conviction that they are superior is frightening. |
| Date: | Oct 11 14:04 |
| Author: | Andy_Orsburn |
| The fact that it was newly reinforced at this year's
October conference is even more frightening. I don't remember if it was this bad 14 years ago, when I left. I'm also wondering what cultures Ms. Beck was referring to, which value children less. "Lower birth rate = Children are less valuable than before?" Good post. |
| Subject: | Re: One Sentence From Julie Beck tells it all - THIS IS THE PLACE! |
| Date: | Oct 11 14:59 |
| Author: | emalee |
| This makes me glad that we left the church. My oldest daughter is very smart and loves science. She wants to go into medicine and has never really wanted to be a mom. It used to upset her when she had YW lesson telling her to be a homemaker. I can tell you that she would be very unhappy staying home being a mom, and further, she has so many other gifts to give the world. I let her read the talk and she was upset to think that the Mormon church only has one allowable role for women. For those that want to be homemakers...great, but if you don't fit that mold you will struggle so much inside the Mormon church. Truly sad. |
| Subject: | tol, Great post! Norma Rae, you said something that really hit me... |
| Date: | Oct 11 16:31 |
| Author: | Crystal Song |
| "...we were taught to value our children more as a
possession and not something we need to cherish and nurture." I was never able to put this into words, but that is exactly right! It's true about the way Mormon men are taught to think about women too. |
| Subject: | Julie Beck's Talk--Mothers Who Know |
| Date: | Oct 09 14:00 |
| Author: | closet questioner |
| Two thoughts on this talk. First, what exactly is it
that her subject mothers "know"? She never clearly defines it and leaves the
listener guessing. I assume, given the context of her talk, that she means
"know that the church is God's one true church and only way to true
happiness." Still, I think she's purposefully unclear; mormonism thrives on
ambiguity. Second, she states that "mothers who know are willing to . . . consume less of the world's goods to spend more time with their children . . . ." However, the reality seems to be that the church's active mothers (frequently consume more of the worlds goods. Most can't live up to Beck's recklessly idealistic of a good mormon mother, despite the fact that they "know." They're driven to depression because they "know" yet fall short of the model. They turn to antidepressants and overindulgence to alleviate the pain of falling short--pain the Holy Ghost isn't easing. Beck doesn't state it's just an ideal, something to shoot for; her message is clearly that this model is how real "mothers who know" live and act. Pretty sad. |
| Subject: | The internet is changing things for TBM women |
| Date: | Oct 09 14:59 |
| Author: | C.O. |
| I have been perusing the LDS blogs and this talk seems
to have hit a nerve with many people. Even TBM women can see that this talk
has a retro 50's ideas! Ironing?! But what I find amazing is that there are TBM women getting together in this virtual world and speaking UP about it! I predict this little talk is going to drive some women right out. A long time ago a talk like this would have been just another talk and even if some women didn't like it they would think "oh it's just me that didn't like what they said" Now you find out, wow, others didn't like it either! Sometimes it only takes a talk like this to send people over the edge and see the light. I heard this talk and I was flabbergasted. |
| Subject: | More evidence of what you suggest ... |
| Date: | Oct 09 15:56 |
| Author: | weeder |
| my TBM wife who has NEVER spoken anything against the
church heard this talk during the ONE (yeah) session of conference she tuned
into. She admitted to me that she was taken back by it. She KNEW that a lot
of women in the church weren't going to like it. She also admitted to me
that in talking with her sister in Wisconsin she got the same reaction from
her. Her sister had got to her chapel to hear GC and one women approach my
SIL afterwards and out of the blue made a direct and derogatory statement
about that one talk. In 100 other incidence where my wife COULD have admitted she had disagreements with the church (and I know she has a few unconfessed disagreements) this is the FIRST time she's voice a disagreement that she has with the church to ME !!! (I see this as real progress for my family). I think as exmos it is our responsibility and DUTY to see to it that the text of this one talk (available Thursday on lds.org) should be spread far and wide on the internet of the perfect example of what "mormonism" stands for. |
| Subject: | I heard most of that talk of the radio. I couldn't believe my ears. |
| Date: | Oct 09 16:46 |
| Author: | Dagny |
| It sounded like sour grapes mixed with propaganda to
convince women they really, really, really are super duper important as
homemakers and mommies. Wink, wink. You women Mormon housewives are running the whole show! That's your little secret the rest of humanity is missing out on (rolling my eyes). You rule the world! It struck me as a manipulative effort to maintain little breeding hives for Mormonism. Who cares what happens to the women when their kids are grown and gone. Who cares if the women who could have cured cancer stayed home to raise a future missionary. Who cares if this system creates a truly dependent woman who cannot support herself. Who cares if women with careers manage to share homemaking and parenting duties just as effectively as Mormon housewives. I'm not knocking stay at home wives and homemakers. That is a preference many people enjoy. But to pretend it is superior and to subtly imply that doing anything less is going to ruin your family is a scare tactic. They want women to be home breeding, serving the priesthood, and raising the next brainwashed generation just like themselves. Independent women do not encumber their husbands and children to remain in the cult mentality. Rope the mother into the Mormon Taliban way of life and the whole family is stuck. Her entire worth requires everyone to play along. Seriously, the woman giving the talk sounded like something out of Stepford. |
| Subject: | Beck's talk was a HOWLER! |
| Date: | Oct 09 16:52 |
| Author: | The Three Nephite Brewery |
| I loved it. Listened to it three times this morning.
How much abuse will sisters take? Now I can blame my apostacy on my mom who
was neglectful when it came to her homemaking and my wife for not keeping up
with the laundry (we have seven kids, it is impossible). I look forward to
asking my wife about this one. Doesn't anyone in this God-Forsaken church ever ask "would Jesus say this?" For being Christian, this church seems awfully concerned with the outward appearance of righteousness. |
| Subject: | I'm embarrassed to admit that I used to be disappointed in my wife . . . |
| Date: | Oct 09 17:26 |
| Author: | closet questioner |
| because there were ways in which she fell short of the
mormon-woman ideal that I had developed. As one stupid example, she never
ironed my shirts--even when she stayed at home. Despite the emotional rip it has been, I'm glad I finally saw the light and am letting go of mormon indoctrination. I see my wife more as a fellow human (though, to be honest and accurate, I usually see her as a cross between a human and a sex object!) Unfortunately, she's still TBM. I was talking with her on Sunday about the wedge in our relationship that is mormonism. The wedge is real and every once in a while it comes up. I asked her if she'd want to know if the church were really not true. She just replied that she doesn't want to be where I am--meaning she doesn't want to forego her belief in an eternally happy afterlife. She steadfastly holds to her "testimony" because she wants to believe, despite a modest understanding of doctrinal and historical problems. However, she works outside the home now, and her development (professionally and personally) has been awesome. Although there is some tension in the form of guilt inspired by mormon group think, she enjoys her work. Her work and education have exposed her to ideas that the typical mormon housewife would not be exposed to in any depth, like feminism. I love to watch as her mind expands beyond the world of house-wife mormonism. I love the occasions when we engage in critical discussions of world events and views. I have hope that she too will see the light. But I don't hold my breath. |
| Subject: | I love this: "Her belief in an eternally happy afterlife". |
| Date: | Oct 09 19:13 |
| Author: | Mrs. Estzerhaus |
| OMG, Yes! I remember when I was quite young, I asked my mom if we were only living to die so we could finally be happy with Jesus. I was serious because I was innocent and really thought that was what the church taught. Looking back at my young self as an adult, I was quite insightful. It scared my mom when I said it, but she was too brainwashed to say anything. |
| Subject: | To truly consume less of the world's goods... |
| Date: | Oct 09 17:00 |
| Author: | Mummylus |
| would require you to extremely limit or have NO
children. But of course, her only intent was to tell women they should be
perfectly happy about being poor, just have lots of children. She evidently
has nine or ten siblings however, she only had three children. Mmmm...Not
quite the mormon standard. Her measly three children doesn't seem very committed to her statement, "Mother's who know, desire to bear children." and of course her article of faith, "We believe in having children." She had to throw a bone to all those women that are not married or are unable to have children. They will still be considered "faithful daughters of God" and of value in mormon culture if you "DESIRE to have children." Then of course you can be a polygamous wife in the here after and have all those blessings. (Maybe she couldn't have more children but she desires them so she is still faithful.) Where are all the children she should have adopted or fostered. Do they not deserve a mother? You see, I have two sisters that are not married but would be unable to have children anyway even though they were "preordained to be mothers" as well as married in their patriarchal blessings. I know countless amazing women that are unmarried but still do not consider adoption. Of several nieces that cannot have children or are unable to carry a baby to term,only one has adopted a baby. What about all those orphan and foster children that are just left! If she truly believes her statement that, "In the eternal perspective children, not possessions, not position, not prestige are our greatest jewels." and having such "eternal influence and power" you would think she would give up her possessions, position and prestige and go adopt some kids. I am sorry I started to rant. Thanks for listening, I must have needed to vent. |
| Subject: | I caught that part! Ugggggh!... |
| Date: | Oct 09 17:36 |
| Author: | Dagny |
>She had to throw a bone to all those women that are not married or are unable to have children. They will still be considered "faithful daughters of God" and of value in mormon culture if you "DESIRE to have children." That part was unreal. She basically said if the women who don't have kids will keep beating the "praise motherhood" drum (wishing they were mothers themselves, wink wink) then they are still of value. Just don't let anyone hear you value anything more than being a homemaker, ladies. Yes, as long as motherhood is proclaimed by all womankind to be the top priority, women who don't actually do it will be tolerated. Just say you desire to have children. Just pretend we all want to be having kids for eternity and that way no one upsets the hive. Screw the planet. Screw personal individualistic fulfillment. The uterus rules all! Make more Mormons. The men in charge of you? Well, they WISH they had a uterus. God, what is wrong with women that they can't see the condescending, patronizing controlling oppression this really is? One thing that is disturbing to notice in some places like E. Africa and parts of the Middle East is to realize it is the women who police themselves. It is the women who keep insisting their daughters should be circumcised because they were. It is the women who often enforce their oppression and allow allow the males to abuse them out of fear. Unfortunately, it teaches women to use manipulation instead of demanding true equality. If all the women would refuse to attend the Mormon church tomorrow, the church would miraculously decide women can hold the priesthood. If men were told to stay home and raise baby Mormons (under the counsel of their wives) how long do you think the men would play along? |
| Subject: | I've been wondering when I'd see a post on this... |
| Date: | Oct 09 17:08 |
| Author: | tomthummim |
| Julie Beck has created yet another List for TBM women
to compare themselves and ultimately beat themselves over. Prozac
prescriptions will certainly be on the rise once this lovely talk is made
into a refrigerator magnet. These people are incredibly deceptive
salespeople *obsessed with appearance* in order to lure new members(!) Few
investigators really 'know' what they are getting into until they've drank a
few gallons of kool-aid. Erie lines such as 'mothers brushing their girls hairs to perfection' and boys with 'missionary hair cuts' and 'crisp white shirts.' WTF?! Now that 'white shirts' have been stated in GC through a supposed 'mouthpiece of God' it will become a rule engraved in stone. IMHO, I think she used the word 'know' in the same upside down way people say their testimonies. They replace BELIEVE with KNOW. This is meant to esteem the women in their never ending, thankless jobs as mothers. |
| Subject: | Re: Julie Beck's Talk--Mothers Who Know |
| Date: | Oct 09 17:29 |
| Author: | me |
| Does this this woman really really believe this
drivel? I am listening to the talk right now and my stomach is definitely
turning. If I hear 'mothers who know' again I know that I will scream. If the only literature studied in my home were the BOM, D&C, KJV I think I would have to run with the children for the hills. Lets prepare a group of righteous children with closed minds. Does she actually start weeping while speaking? I am sorry this post is all over the page, I just cannot believe the stupidity. |
| Subject: | Re: Julie Beck's Talk--Mothers Who Know |
| Date: | Oct 09 19:06 |
| Author: | relieved I'm out |
| This talk made me sad, but relieved in a big way. If I
had heard this last year, before I had left, I would have tried to "humble"
myself to accept it. It would have only exacerbated the resentment and
bitterness I felt about my "role as a mother." What really makes me sad is
that there are women who will try and meet these unrealistic, superficial
expectations. I know that half of my neighbors (here in Utah) who are good
women will bend over backwards to accomplish these weird ideals like
"ironing" dresses. I mean, really! Has there ever been a more appropriate
metaphor for female oppression that ironing? It's used in literature all the
time. So offensive. And even cliche. Well, I hope that the mormon women who are disappointed will shout this talk down. Especially those fringe mormon women who have been pushing for change. This must really feel like a slap in the face for them. |
| Subject: | I'm buying stock in "Eli Lily" maker of "Prozac"! |
| Date: | Oct 09 19:23 |
| Author: | Mrs. Estzerhaus |
| All those depressed Mormon women are going to make me
rich as they try, and fail at being the prefect wife & mother. I'd get stock in ironing boards but not sure who makes 'em. As for the irons, well, I'll need to take a trip to WallMart to see which ones are flying off the shelves. Maybe I'll ask my TBM sisters which ones they prefer. Yeah, that will make a real hit at the next reunion and a good conversation starter ;) |
| Subject: | Hahahaha. |
| Date: | Oct 09 19:38 |
| Author: | Dagny |
| Always thinking, Mrs. E! You can bet some crafty housewife will "invent" ironing board covers that LDS housewives can personalize with iron-on designs (like the giant word FAMILY or Mothers Who Know). Snort. I kill me. My mom taught me to iron pillowcases. Hand embroidered pillowcases. Top that you Mormon housewives. |
| Subject: | Re: Julie Beck's Talk--Mothers Who Know |
| Date: | Oct 09 19:43 |
| Author: | Lynn |
| Ms Beck's talk is EXACTLY why I began to question
mormonism. About 10years ago I was present at a regular Sunday relief
society where the lesson had the same message. I listened in disbelief to
this "inspired" lesson and decided that I did not need another entity
attacking my self-image. I walked out of that class and never went back. Another concern I had reading her talk was the reference to dressing your children & brushing their hair until it's smooth......sounds like the polygamists I see often in southern utah! sad & scary! |
| Subject: | ExMo's know!! |
| Date: | Oct 09 20:28 |
| Author: | conformingsheep |
| I love reading the insights of women who are strong
and powerful - the ladies that define Exmo. I got to go home and iron some clothes now. |
| Subject: | How ironic! One thing that really drives me buggy is TBM family.. |
| Date: | Oct 09 20:42 |
| Author: | outofutah |
| [specifically the women] walk around as if they are
trying to be perfect-not a hair out of place. It's a mortal sin if your five
year old doesn't have her hair up in some sort of clip, scrunchee or
whatever. Just what they need-a Morg leader telling them to do more of this sort of thing. outofutah |
| Subject: | Re: Julie Beck's Talk--Mothers Who Know |
| Date: | Oct 09 20:48 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| Ooooooo mothers know. The prophet knows. the cult leaders know. They all know some big secret. A bunch of 6 year olds with a big secret - Ooooo. Spooky? |
| Subject: | Spike in psychologist visits |
| Date: | Oct 09 21:08 |
| Author: | maeve |
| Several years ago a psychologist from the Salt Lake
area spoke in our ward (it might have been for "Homemaking Night") She
stated that there is always an increase in her business the week or so after General Conference, especially in Mormon women wanting appointments with psychologists. It seems that hearing all the ways these women don't measure up to impossible gospel standards causes real mental anguish. It sounds like this talk is one of the main offenders this time around. |
| Subject: | This talk might be bad PR for stay-at-home mothers in general. |
| Date: | Oct 09 22:21 |
| Author: | forestpal |
| I have problems with everything about this talk. Even
when I was a sincere TBM stay-at-home mother, my gut-instincts rebelled
against this kind of thinking. Staying at home to raise your children is one
thing--being a Stepford Mother-Who-Knows is another thing entirely. This is
not a debate of working mother vs stay-at-home mother, this is a debate on
whether to brainwash, control, and punish your children, or to love them,
enjoy them, parent them, and allow them to develop as individuals. I raised happy, funny, tolerant, loving, creative, successful, educated, responsible citizens of the real world. Whew. Maybe I was just lucky. Even as a TBM, it was NEVER my goal to raise little brainwashed missionaries. I did not force them into an impossible mold of perfection, but allowed them to be themselves. My daughter's hair was not smooth, but she was beautiful with her blond curls. My sons never wore a crisp white shirt, because the second they picked up a puppy or ate a sandwich, the shirt was a mess. They were living and breathing and being children. I played with them outdoors in nature, on the beach, and in the mountains. I taught them to swim, ride a bicycle, ski, surf, skate, to play the piano and sing, to draw and write poems, to play baseball, basketball, and tennis (their coaches taught them football and soccer.) Did we "consume" too much sports equipment? I enjoyed volunteering at my children's schools, year after year, and was elected to the Board of Education, and I made some great non-mormon friends. I went back to college to get my teaching certificaate. Church callings were unfulfilling to me, I taught my children the scriptures and BEYOND--all those wonderful children's books, filled with the philosophy of great thinkers like LL Milne, Dr. Seuss, Aesop, Robert Lewis Stevenson, Kipling, SC Lewis, Dickens--melding into great adult literature. If the day was too sunny and the surf was up, we would skip church and hit the beach. They did not have to EARN my love or God's love! A stay-at-home mother can be very happy and fulfilled! Wow, Wow, Wow, do I ever agree with the posters who link TSCC pressure and guilt to depression! That happened to so many of my TBM women friends, and it seemed the more rigidly obedient they were, the more depressed they were. Although I did drag the kids to Primary and Sunday School, Scouts and YM/YW, I felt guilty that our household was not strict enough to suit the TBM's. Julie Beck in her Relief Society talk, quotes GBH as saying to the women, "...you can do better." I guess all those good things that I was happily teaching my children in the home was very counter-productive and wicked according to Mormon standards, because my kids did not grow up to be brainwashed cult missionaries. Thank you for these discussions. I feel so much less like a failure these days! |
| Subject: | Me too. You sound like a mother who actually does know something and |
| Date: | Oct 09 23:31 |
| Author: | et in Utah ego |
| is also able to see the "big picture:" you raised capable citizens of the world who can contribute to the greater good of all humanity, not "members" who will live their lives working for an isolated and self-enclosed "kingdom." |
| Subject: | The upside of Julie Beck's sermon |
| Date: | Oct 10 08:47 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| I subscribe to the theory that the church doesn't
preach against things it doesn't consider problems. And since the brethren
are rather detached from the actual lives of their flock, the "problem" is
quite advanced by the time it registers in their ossified minds. So when Puppet Beck scolds the women of the church for not sufficiently adhering to the church's reproductive and homemaking standards, it means more and more LDS women are going their own way in those matters. Hurray for them! |
| Subject: | Also take into account the PO factor |
| Date: | Oct 10 09:28 |
| Author: | Primus |
| Those who probably following Becks advice, but still
feel guilty by it and get mad. I hope they have MORE talks like this. I like it when they shoot themselves in the foot. |
| Subject: | Re: The upside of Julie Beck's sermon |
| Date: | Oct 10 22:56 |
| Author: | bona dea |
| If I were still in the church, that talk would have been a catalyst to get me out. Maybe it will have the same effect on other women. |
| Subject: | General Relief Society President for the Church. |
| Date: | Oct 10 23:11 |
| Author: | Tyson Dunn |
| Quoting Wikipedia: "Julie Bangerter Beck (b. 29 September 1954) has been the General President of the Relief Society of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since 31 March 2007." She gave a talk during the Sunday morning session of conference [Oct. 2007] suggesting that women should revert to 1950s homemaker standards. Tyson |
|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |