Subject:

Sex for Salvation - Joseph Smith's biggest forgotten LDS Doctrine

Date:

Sep 22, 2005 11:44

Author:

Deconstructor

Today, Mormons think they must earn their own salvation.

But the Prophet Joseph Smith taught a different doctrine. Smith taught that a whole family could be saved if the wife or daughter of the family was married to him.

One example of this is fourteen year-old Helen Mar Kimball, who Joseph Smith traded sex for the salvation of her entire family.

We have Helen's own testimony of what 37 year-old Joseph Smith promised 14 year-old Helen Mar Kimball in order to make her his bride:

Helen wrote:

"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he (my father) offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: how cruel this seemed to my mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder, for she had already taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more."- Helen Mar Whitney Journal, Helen Mar Autobiography, Womans Exponent, 1880 and recently reprinted in A Woman's view

In fact, Joseph Smith gave young Helen only 24 hours to decide on whether or not to marry him. Of this, Helen wrote:

"[my father] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty four hours. ... I was sceptical - one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast me off, and this was the only convincing proof That I had of its being right."

The next morning, Joseph Smith finally appeared himself to explain the "law of Celestial Marriage" and claim his teen bride. In her memoir, Helen wrote, "After which he said to me, 'if you take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred.' This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."Helen also writes about her mother's reaction to all of this:

"None but God and his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart - when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied 'If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say."

"She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had yet seen her fifteenth summer, following the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was hidden from me."

Helen thought her marriage to Joseph Smith was only dynastic. But to her surprise, it was more. Helen confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it."
- "Mormon Polygamy: A History" by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.

And before you start saying it was normal for 37 year-old married men to marry teenagers, read this:

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/teen_polygamy.htm

How would this restored doctrine work today, if the church still practiced it?

 

Subject:

Emma should have pulled a Lorena Bobbit on him

Date:

Sep 22 12:15

Author:

EffieMelodyWhite

You know, I can handle polygamy (to a point), but what I can't handle is the lying and ass covering to hide it, and the abuse of power as in the case you mentioned. She was a child in many ways, far too young to deal with that kind of pressure. The parents, Heber and Vilate, are acting more like pimps than parents, selling their daughter out for "salvation." It is just sickening.

 

 

Subject:

Re: Sex for Salvation - Joseph Smith's biggest forgotten LDS Doctrine

Date:

Sep 22 13:08

Author:

cl2

"And if he have 10 virgins . . . " What does this sound like that we have heard in the past few years? How many virgins were the 9/11 terrorists supposed to have?

 

Subject:

God promised Smith hundreds of wives, the hijackers only got 79....

Date:

Sep 22 15:32

Author:

Deconstructor

Using Joseph Smith as a medium, God supposedly promises Joseph Smith wives "an hundredfold" in this world and even more after this life:

"... and I will bless him (Joseph Smith) and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds."
- D&C 132:55

The 9/11 hijackers only thought they were getting 79 virgins after this life.

So who was more motived to do what they did to get all the women?

 

Subject:

Thanks, Deconstructor...

Date:

Sep 22 14:18

Author:

cheeseburger

This post of yours is rather central to my interests at the moment. I was also looking at some of the archived material you've done on Helen. Scary man, that Papa Kimball.

I was also wondering, would you mind very much posting that link again to your Bible deconstructing page? I should have just bookmarked it the last time I was there, but I was just ASSUMING I could find it again on my own, and I should KNOW better than that...! :P

 

Subject:

It's hard to believe God picked Papa Kimball as an Apostle...

Date:

Sep 22 15:25

Author:

Deconstructor

It's seems odd that God would really pick Heber C. Kimball as one of his elect Apostles to represent Jesus Christ.

After all, here's what Kimball taught from the pulpit as the Lord's special witness:

"I have noticed that a man who has but one wife, and is inclined to that doctrine, soon begins to wither and dry up, while a man who goes into plurality [of wives] looks fresh, young, and sprightly."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses Vol 5, page 22

After Kimball took his last wife at age fifty-six, he begot seventeen children by her and by four other wives.

"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101.

Speaking to a group of departing missionaries...

"Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp.129-30.

and again...

"I say to those who are elected to go on missions, remember they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You under stand that. Amen"
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.256.

What God in his right mind would pick such a man as his Apostle? Or if He did, why didn't God inspire Kimball to make a retraction to these teachings?

By the way, the link to my Bible stuff is here:
http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/

"Some quietly listen to those who speak against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203

 

 

Subject:

What a good little morgbot...

Date:

Sep 24 23:20

Author:

Bryan

So totally, rabidly obedient to Joe the Profit that he offered up his 14 year old daughter for Joe's sexual pleasure in exchange for getting into heaven. No wonder he was picked by Joe (who claimed to be speaking for God) to be an Apostle.

 

 

Subject:

Thanks, Deconstructor. I was looking for this info. a few days ago. This episode really shows...

Date:

Sep 22 16:11

Author:

FreeAtLast

that Joseph Smith, like other cult leaders, really knew how to psychologically manipulate people. It also shows his complete lack of empathy for them. What a terrible thing he did to the Kimball family, young Helen in particular.

 

Subject:

Another question, Decon...

Date:

Sep 22 16:18

Author:

cheeseburger

Why is she "Helen Mar KIMBALL Whitney", and not "Helen Mar SMITH Whitney"?

Wouldn't she have dropped her maiden name in favour of the prophet's holy surname, especially since this marriage was supposed to buy her ultimate salvation?

 

Subject:

Joseph Smith's plural marriages were never legal..

Date:

Sep 22 16:33

Author:

Deconstructor

I don't know for sure, but I suspect the reason why her name didn't change is because her "marriage" to Smith wasn't legal.

We use the term "marriage" to describe what Joseph Smith did, but in fact they were not real marriages by legal or moral standards.

Mormon plural marriages were never legal. Not in Kirtland when Smith had relations with 16 year-old Fany Algier and not in Nauvoo when he took 14 year-old Helen Mar. Plural marriage was never legal in Utah either!

See:
http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_illegal.htm

 

Subject:

...yeah, I see your point, but...

Date:

Sep 22 16:42

Author:

cheeseburger

I'm a "Smith", even though I'm descended from Lot Smith's "illegal" plural wife.

 

Subject:

Re: Sex for Salvation - Joseph Smith's biggest forgotten LDS Doctrine

Date:

Sep 22 16:35

Author:

No Moniker

Decon has demonstrated that it was not the norm for girls to marry so young, especially to much older men.

But, even if it were, it certainly was not normal for the couple to marry in secret and keep the marriage secret from all but the closest family. It was not normal for a young bride to continue living as a child in her parent’s home while her husband continued to live openly with another wife. It was not normal for an entire family's salvation to hinge on a young girl's acquiescence to the older man's demands.

ARRRRGGGHHH!!! It just infuriates me that TBM's so easily excuse this kind of behavior.

 

Subject:

Re: Sex for Salvation - Joseph Smith's biggest forgotten LDS Doctrine

Date:

Sep 22 16:47

Author:

4 decades of freedom

In "From Quaker to Latter Day Saint", Leonard Arrington (official church historian at the time) writes a biography of Edwin Woolley, a merchant in the early church. Woolley's children have different tales of Smith's manipulations. Once Smith walked into Woolley's Nauvoo store and demanded $500 in cash (equivalent to perhaps $50,000 today). Woolley, with some misgivings, handed it over. Smith returned it without any explanation some time later. Another time Smith demanded all his worldly goods. He was given a day to think about it. When he agreed, Smith didn't take anything and said it was just a test. Manipulation was really Joe's strong suit, and sex was just one part of it.

What's odd is reading about the above episode from the church point of view. They just don't see it as consistent evidence of a sick personality. Instead, it's a glorious example of how Joe helped Woolley be a better man.

 

Subject:

a) Times were different then, people married earlier.

Date:

Sep 22 20:17

Author:

FeelingOfFreedom

b) You can't apply morals of today to the past.

c) It was God's will so it must be right.

My wife uses these on me. I've asked her how she would feel if she had to give up one of her daughters. The answer? (a), (b), or (c) above. The argument quickly becomes an infinite loop.

There is nothing on this planet that could change her point of view.

I've given up on her.

It looks like my kids will be following in her footsteps.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr...........

 

Subject:

Shows the dirty truth, doesn't it?

Date:

Sep 23 22:11

Author:

Matt

Smith WAS a polygamist and did marry children. He was, in short, a nasty sexual predator.

 

 

Subject:

This is such important information for those who may

Date:

Sep 24 23:14

Author:

Saucie

not be aware of it. Thank you so much Decon.

Can anyone doubt that not only was Joseph Smith

a slime ball, liar and greedy sociopath,

he was also a sexual predator, and if this doesn't

prove it, I don't know what else would.

 

Joseph Smith Related Topics    

23. Why wasn't Emma Destroyed?

26. Smith's Polygamy

199  Joseph Smith's Wives

253  Joseph Smith, Menses, Pedophilia

262  Share Your Wife with J. Smith?

266  Apostle: "Smith used a Seer Stone"

187  Angels Coerced Smith into Sex?

320 Why Did Smith Die Willingly?

351 Joseph Smith and Helen Kimball age 14

 

       

           

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