Subject: When the church centralized the budget, it ruined the wards
Date: May 27 23:10
Author: Bye Bye Morgie
The church at the ward level has really changed in 40 years. When I was a small kid, I remember the ward running a fair booth, selling doughnuts, selling hoagie sandwiches, working on the stake farm. Even the building we met in which was nicer than the new cookie cutter buildings was built mostly with volunteer labor. Sure Salt Lake would help but the ward was in charge of it's own budget and what extra money that was left over, the ward got to keep.

We had some wonderful ward fairs, ward picnics, and a very nice Christmas program. A lot of these activities were fun because people could raise the money for them and having a good activity was motivation to do well in the fundraising process. It taught us kids a work ethic.

Now all the money goes to Salt Lake and church bureaucrats in the Church Office Building divvy out a little money to each ward. The budgets are tight and there is little money for good activities anymore. With central control, come corporate like policies that are so smothering, you can't really use a ward building for anything anymore. Many have wonderful kitchens but you can't cook in them.

Now the members are used as janitors and landscapers. They still pay their 10% and fast offerings but really don't get much back in return. At least with the fundraising, that pulled the ward together. Raising money can be a fun challenge. The reality, it there were a lot of social reasons to go to church in the old days. I remember activities were more important than the doctrine 20 years ago.

Now Mormon Inc. treats the local members and leaders like children. They have all the money and power and aren't shy to let the members know it. Ask any TBM about the new budget policy and how everything is controlled by Salt Lake now. You will hear sincere frustration.

The ward has become a sterile corporate division where nobody has any authority. In the last ward I was in, the bishop couldn't even get new curtains for the windows in a classroom. In the old days, money would be set aside to purchase them or the relief society could make them. In fact one good sister offered to make us some but it was against Church policy to do so. Nowadays, all permission must come from Salt Lake and it's ruining the church.

Subject: ward social activities are a mere shadow of what they were 30 years ago
Date: May 27 23:19
Author: Higgins-Magee
Nowadays, its hard to even get people excited to plan or attend anything.

With no budget, no time, and no freedom to create anything meaningful, most members would rather stay home or go someplace else.

We see this with the scouting program. Sure, the church calls a scoutmaster, and maybe if he's lucky, he'll have an assistant.

But these are busy men, and often can't give a lot of free time.

Contrast that with a non-LDS troop where the leaders may be retired, and have no "church callings," home teaching, temple attendance requirements, etc. Their spare time is free to devote to the troop, and the difference shows.

Subject: YES, YES, YES!!!
Date: May 27 23:45
Author: Brandnewtatoo
I've been trying to explain this to TBM friends for some time now, but they don't believe me---all of them having been baptized since the early nineties.

I remember when I was a kid our ward had Saturday afternoon car washes, door-to-door donut sales, campouts, cookouts, water ski trips, temple trips, youth conferences, road shows, primary on Wednesday afternoon, and all kinds of cool fun activities that made church life fun.

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone wants to participate in anything church related anymore. It's so bland and lifeless. what do they get now, a Thanksgiving dinner where they have to bring most of the food themselves, and a Christmas pageant with aluminum foil halos and sprinkle cookies. It's sad. But hey, at least it's beginning to drive people away from the morg.

Subject: The buildings are better maintained than they ever have been, but what's inside is lacking
Date: May 28 03:42
Author: Bye Bye Morgie
In the last 20 years, the church really started dumping a lot of money into modernizing and remodeling existing buildings.

The problem is, Mormon Inc. in Salt Lake has taken all of the money and freedom. Permission from the Kremlin is needed to do anything.

So what you have is a bunch of buildings that have the same wall coverings, carpet, the same general look and are well maintained and look good driving by but there is nothing but emptiness inside.

Subject: I use to run the ward projector for Saturday movies...
Date: May 28 00:02
Author: Yup
in the rec hall. The Bishop would rent a Disney flick or two from Desert Book. The Boy Scouts would sell candy and pop corn. Mothers across the ward would get some blessed hours ALONE on sat for shopping, cleaning or putting their feet up and resting. It was 3 hours of baby sitting for a small donation or the cost of candy money.

The hall was always packed.

Subject: Re: When the church centralized the budget, it ruined the wards
Date: May 28 01:33
Author: Anon
I remember the fun dinners almost every other week, sometimes they'd roast a whole pig or we'd have progressive dinners where we went from house to house.

There is just no money for anything although members pay 10% tithing - and for what? So the old geezers in SLC can fund their pet projects?

We stopped going when we saw how crazy things were getting. Didn't care to work for nothing any more.

If the boys in Salt Lake want the chapels cleaned they can get of their butts and do it themselves.

Subject: At stake conference in January ...
Date: May 28 01:50
Author: Micro
... one of the counselors in our stake said that instructions had come from the First Presidency that the wards were to start having more fun. Apparently, people had been complaining that church wasn't any fun anymore.

To comply with the instructions, our stake has had one talent festival. I think that blew the budget for the year. I have not heard of any other plans. (My husband maintains the ward calendar which includes all the stake events.)

Subject: Re: At stake conference in January ...
Date: May 28 02:01
Author: Anon
OMG, now having fun is also a commandment.

Will the drudgery never end?

Subject: Yup, yup.
Date: May 28 09:14
Author: Quevedo
Our ward put on an annual haunted house that was the Halloween hit in our small college town. People would line up for blocks to get in.

It was pretty over the top. We rented an old Odd Fellows nursing home that hadn't been used in decades. It was truly a creepy building even during daylight hours when we would set stuff up.

We had some truly awesome effects, that were gory as hell.

But we made tons of money, lots of friends, and many fond memories. We also built our own chapel with loads of labor donated by members.

I still remember sweeping asbestos pipe insulation out of the crawl spaces with other kids my age. Cough, cough.


Subject: I've been inactive for a while, so I remember mostly fun times
Date: May 28 02:21
Author: zman44
Coed canoe/camping trip w/ singles ward. The brothers slept on one side of the little road in the campground, the sisters on the other.

Large picnics w/ almost every ward member showing up--football games, etc.

A fun Pioneer Days celebration in a regular ward, w/ handcart races, sack races and canoe races, etc.

I actually attended some pretty good dances/parties too.

I'm saddened to know things have gotten so lame.

z

Subject: Re: I've been inactive for a while, so I remember mostly fun times
Date: May 28 02:34
Author: Anon3
The floggings will continue until morale improves.

Signed

Boyd K. Packer

Subject: I agree however, I can see why they did it....
Date: May 28 07:51
Author: austinapostate
In the 80's our ward had a youth conference....we flew to Hawaii (about 30 of us). It was a pretty affluent ward, and money was never a problem for those types of activities. If we wanted to have a fund raiser, we could rake some old rich widow's lawn for $100... In contrast, some of the wards in Rose Park (I'm not picking on Rose Park-a neighborhood in SLC-but it's not as affluent) couldn't afford to even do a youth conference in their own church parking lot, the budgets were that dissimilar. So, the church, in an effort to make the church the same for rich and poor, shifted to the new budget process.

The problem is that now, no one has a budget to have any fun, or do anything for their members aside from some lame Christmas dinner and MAYBE a Pioneer Day celebration, which is pointless in Texas!!!

The church's central planning and control is very similar to the former USSR and other communist countries planning process, and we can see how well Cuba, North Korea and others are doing now...

Subject: Re: I agree however, I can see why they did it....
Date: May 28 11:32
Author: Anon
Your observations are right on.

Leadership now takes away people's autonomy and incentive, and kills creativity on top of sucking them dry financially.

No wonder they're losing people right and left.

The morg hasn't got a leg to stand on with their dogma either.

Subject: I really don't understand the problem with this.
Date: May 28 14:10
Author: poster
I guess it was because I was in one of the poorer wards and things definitely got better for us with the change. Also no one had to worry about raising money for the budget anymore, or pay extra money out of their pockets for the budget in addition to the tithing. We still kept having good ward parties and such. I guess it was because our Sacrament meeting attendance was high enough to get us a good allotment of money for it all.

Subject: OH These posts bring back memories.
Date: May 28 08:47
Author: Snoop
Growing up in the 60's our social life revolved around the church and it was fun. I suppose some of that was just being a kid, but some of my most fond memories are the fund raising activities. We had an annual rodeo/fair like event. We rode little calves and got prizes. The PH would have a hamburger booth and the RS a baked goods booth. It was a blast.

This thread is spot on. The church really shot themselves in the foot getting rid of that stuff.

Subject: "m glad to hear that things WERE like that..
Date: May 28 09:55
Author: x
I could never understand why activities like that do not exist. The church I was affiliated with pre-LDS always had cool stuff like that.

I just thought they were too stuck up to do things like that.

Subject: This is a GOOD thing!
Date: May 28 11:19
Author: anon
When people give and give and give and give, and continue to get nothing in return, they stop giving. I really hope the Morg continues along this path... they're undermining themselves!

Subject: I think it's funny!
Date: May 28 11:27
Author: ME
Yes, it's TOO hilarious to see the 'millionaire' wards in Salt Lake City, who think they are above everyone else, get the same budget as the average ward of commoners. The ritzy rich women going to home making night to make crafts such as garbage cans made out of large cardboard ice cream buckets. Or makeup applicators stylishly made out of tampons.

Subject: Re: When the church centralized the budget, it ruined the wards
Date: May 28 11:31
Author: SoUt Skeptic
Bye Bye Morgie wrote:

"Now all the money goes to Salt Lake and church bureaucrats in the Church Office Building divvy out a little money to each ward".

Sure sounding like the United Order has been reinstated.

Subject: Adding to your list: Real temple trips, Bike trails, FUN youth conferences,
Date: May 28 11:32
Author: FormerFaithful
big garage sales at the church, ward bazaars and auctions, big pancake breakfasts, talent shows, big road show productions, big dance festivals, fashion shows, ward summer picnics, dances (better than the high school dances).


Things have changed so much. Growing up, we didn't have the Seattle temple and we took bus road trips all the way to the Oakland temple. We would stop and do San Francisco bay, do touristy things, have fun on the bus with our friends and have fun in the hotel. Now the kids get to drive with their leader 1/2 hour to the local temple. whoopee.

Youth conferences used to be held on Orcas Island or other islands in the San Juans. Camping, horseback riding, canoeing, campfires, etc for 3 days. Now: They hold an overnighter at the stupid stake center/ward bldg and it's all about attending classes and workshops all day.

Dances require a dance card and interview from your Bishop. The budget has cut out a lot of fun family activities.

Now the church does not meet your spiritual needs OR your social needs. It just takes your time and money :(


Subject: Re: When the church centralized the budget, it ruined the wards
Date: May 28 12:21
Author: Anon ( cussing)
They way it worked was the ward or stake paid for the meat at dinners from the budget and members brought the salads, butter, rolls etc.

Nowadays, if they tried to bring it back, the members would have to do that ON TOP of paying for everything themselves. Same with fund raisers. No honest tithe payer can afford such double taxation.

I remember when the church would rent shopping malls for New Year's Eve dances with a couple of bands at each end, one for young folks and one for the older crowds, and nobody checked your underwear at the gates.

Then they came up with crazy rules which drove people away.

The last dance we went to had a rule you could not leave for the parking lot. I left my purse in the car so I could dance, and when hubby and I went to go get it they told us if we left we could not get back in.

Mind you, we were adults with children. Who needs the fucking church Gestapo on your back, that was the last time we ever went to a church dance. We started patronizing the local cowboy bars after that which are more fun.

Plus, now you can't listen or dance to this, that or whatever even if they had more activities.

I remember our old SP out there on the dance floor rocking away with the crowd, people loved and respected him. Nowadays everyone walks around in church like they got a holiness pimple on their butt. Boyd K. Packer clones is all they are.

Welcome to the no-fun Mormon church.

Subject: Quit your whining.
Date: May 28 12:21
Author: Gordon B. Hinckley
Our members have never been happier. When they drive by the great and spacious building, err, conference center, they feel great pride in their church and in their leadership.

Now they can go to temples closer to their home and experience the marvelous and wonderful spiritual experiences of the temple endowment.

And the service they give by attending to fellow ward members through home teaching gives our members great satisfaction.

And don't forget about our wonderful malls downtown. How marvelous and wonderful it will be to drive downtown and have so many marvelous places to spend your money.

May I also say, that the selection at Deseret Book has never been better. Books written by me and my colleagues are available to inspire our members to feel the appropriate guilt for their transgressions. Only by repenting of their sins can they find true and eternal happiness.

Yes, our members are happy in their work. They have found joy in a new commitment to our Lord and Savior and to devoting themselves totally to the brethren. There lies the joy that will keep this marvelous work going forth.

And I say this in the name of my bottom line, Amen.

AJM

Subject: Re: When the church centralized the budget, it ruined the wards
Date: May 28 13:52
Author: Glo
In GBH's conference address he boasted that the church is in good condition and growing stronger, carrying on a great humanitarian effort.

Too bad these humanitarians can't even help their own people right here in the US who paid full tithes for many years.

These GAs have too many fawning underlings who won't tell the truth to realize what the mood is on the local levels.

Subject: Hmmm.... well, that at least explains....
Date: May 28 14:02
Author: RogerV
.... why the mishies I've talked to recently didn't have a clue about the social activities the Morg used to have that drew many unsuspecting kids in. Fortunately, I was one that enjoyed some of the activities WITHOUT being drawn in.

Subject: Re: When the church centralized the budget, it ruined the wards
Date: May 28 14:46
Author: wisedup
The church activities use to be so exciting. I remember when Santa Claus would come and hand out big stockings -full of candy. We also had fairs to raise money - they were so fun. I loved the one where you put your fishing line over the cardboard wall and got a prize. Scouting was great then (not like now - my son is so bored with the LDS Scout Program - when they meet - that is). As you said the wards are now sterile. Another reason to leave and hate the morgue. The old morbots in SLC probably love the gloom they have created - don't forget too much fun and laughter are sins!

Subject: Re: When the church centralized the budget, it ruined the wards
Date: May 28 15:42
Author: okgivens
It also ruined the wards when they decided to split so many of them that weren't ready to be split. The two wards in our area could easily be one ward where everyone had just one calling, but the Church must have decided that smaller wards are better. We may only have 10 kids in the young men's/young women's program, but small is better. I would think it would be more economical and more fun to have the two wards together with a larger youth program. It would also be nicer to have a bigger stake where more kids could have activities together. I can remember when the Bishop had to do temple recommends for everyone every year. Now the whole Bishopric can do them and they only have to be done every other year. There is no reason not to have bigger stakes and bigger wards which would also improve the activities. At the same time the buildings wouldn't be as squeezed for space and everyone could get home from Sunday meetings at a decent time without the 1-4 afternoon block. The Church has done so many things to ruin itself that it is no wonder there is such a high inactivity rate. The youth program out here in the mission field is a big joke.
Subject: Signs the First Presidency is losing control over the church
Date: May 28 04:38
Author: Bye Bye Morgie
Shortly after Gordon B. Hinckley became prophet, he made an announcement in General Conference that the church no longer could run from Salt Lake City and the local leadership would have more responsibility. New regional representatives were called to help decentralize the church, but still maintain control.

Now in 2004, the church runs from Salt Lake more than ever. The local leaders are basically puppets because they no longer manage their own budgets or make decisions. They simply try to run the ward or stake on the little amount of money Salt Lake gives them and simply repeat or enforce policies set at corporate headquarters.

As far as the regional representatives go. One stake president complained to me saying they just added an extra layer to the church's bureaucracy and have actually made dealing with Salt Lake a bigger run around than it used to be.

My parents were missionaries at the Church Office Building. My dad told me that President Hinckley did sit in some meetings and would try to personally set some things straight. But of course once he left the Temporal Authorities (COB middle management) would go behind Hinckley's back and do whatever they wanted to do. They were masters at rewording and reworking policies without actually changing how things were actually being done. They basically stood at attention and said "Yes Sir!" and when the prophet was out of sight, they did it their way.

One time my mom answered the phone and it was President Hinckley's son who was a stake president at the time. He had some questions and my mom could answer them. Apparently people started to hear "Yes President Hinckley", "I can do that for you President Hinckley". The next thing my mom knows is there are two levels of supervisors hanging by her cubicle trying to figure out why this pissant missionary is talking to the prophet. LOL! My mom said one even said, she couldn't talk to the prophet and the prophet should be transferred to a supervisor. My mom got mad and said it was not the prophet on the phone.

My mom just saw that these COB managers didn't want anyone but them to talk to President Hinckley. She smuggly said, that's so they can control what the prophet sees and hears. They are scared of some employee talking to him and spilling some beans, plus they butt kiss the guy like crazy.

My parents were TBM to their dying day but they sure had stories to tell about the egoed mid management at the church office building and the behind the back politics that went on there.

I remember my mom telling me the problem with Salt Lake controlling the money from the branches, wards, and stakes is it puts all the power in the hands of these power hungry temporal authority managers.

The end result is it's killing the ward and stake culture. Nobody has control over the building they meet in or can they raise some extra money to have better activities. There is no longer problem solving or fund raising at the ward level. All the ward does is follow policy and try to stretch the meager budget from Salt Lake.

Now with this all going on, Gordon B. Hinckley basically tells the ward to have more fun because pessimism is hurting the church. Ahem, president Hinckley, maybe you should pull rank on those temporal authorities and give some responsibility back to the stakes and wards, like you said your were when you took office. You clearly saw the problem but it's clear you are no longer in charge of a monstrosity of a bureaucracy that reports to nobody. It treats the members and local leaders like shit. It does what it damn well pleases behind your back. If anything, people at the ward and branch level are clearly seeing a conflict of interest between the First Presidency and what is actually happening.

What's been going on during the whole rein of Hinckley, is the old man says wonderful things at the pulpit and tries to solve some legitimate problems in the church, but mid management (many well dressed sharp people with corporate experience) maneuver behind his back. Sure, in the church the First Presidency can pull rank, but is it smart enough to see that it's being duped by it's own subordinates?

In short, everything Hinckley has tried to accomplish PR wise and organizational wise has been a complete failure. He has shown the church he is willing to lie about church doctrine and history to seem more mainstream to the press. He has shown he doesn't have control over the Church Office Building management.

The church continues to be a let down and unsatisfying to the members. What is said at the pulpit sounds like a CD skipping over the same worn out pep talks.

The church is losing it's local culture and activities. What fun there was in Mormonism has been driven out.

All Salt Lake does is build huge pet projects, lots of temples, and of course buildings.

The new Conference Center is a good example of the modern Mormon church. Build something big that gets attention. Impress people with the size and the cost of the building and how well maintained it is. But go inside the building and there is only sterile boredom and emptiness to be found. What's inside the Conference Center is lots of emptiness. It's the perfect symbol.

Subject: Exercising more control is a sign of losing control.
Date: May 28 07:28
Author: Stray Mutt
You don't pull harder on the reins when things are going the way they should, only when things are going off course. The question, though, is who is really holding the reins?

In corporate structures, top management might formulate goals and policies, but the real goals and policies are set by those who have to execute the whole thing. In other words, if top management says the policy is X, but the administrators give only lip service to X and do Y instead, Y is the actual policy.

At every level down the chain of command, policy usually gets reshaped to fit the needs of the individual charged with executing it. Those needs are usually job security and personal advancement rather than the needs of the organization. To make things worse, in a hierarchy like the LDS church, no matter how well you perform, no matter how much your efforts benefit the organization, there is no real reward. You won't get paid more and you won't advance up the ladder unless someone higher up dies or retires. Furthermore, the things that will cost you your job, like failing to qualify for a temple recommend, have nothing to do with job performance. You do a good job and nothing happens. You do a bad job and nothing happens. Doing a bad job is easier.

In an organization like that, where there's no real room for advancement, internal politics and power struggles center around petty shit like perceived status. Who gets treated with the most deference? Who has access to whom? Who gets a window? Who gets away with longer lunch breaks?

So, unless there's a major change in management style, it could be that the bloated, inefficient, unresponsive structure of the church is what ultimately brings it down.

Subject: Exactly and such a structure pisses customers off
Date: May 28 14:13
Author: Bye Bye Morgie
The customers of LDS Inc. are the ward and branch members. They see their money go to the corporation but see what they are actually getting back is a poor product and not what they wanted.

LDS Inc. has some fancy looking brand new stores and advertising but the service and product sucks. Much like eating at a Quiznos sandwich shop.

Subject: You are definitely observant: still, I see that the ability of
Date: May 29 21:36
Author: mephisto
those "born next to the flame" to see the whole picture is limited by their being just too damn close to that flame!

You talk of LDS, Inc. in terms of what is typical in the corporate world: and, you are right!

HOWEVER, most Corridor People--sorry to say--just don't see where the religion took that [dangerous?] [stupid?] left turn, back at the pass!

The religion is now in a "box canyon" for the very simple reason that people--from time immemorial--would rather "worship" a thing of their own creation than to worship God on HIS terms (which are actually simple and undemanding!)

God said (in D&C) to "Organize yourselves". What he DIDN'T say is just as important as what He DID say.

I am old enough to remember a time that the Frontispiece or "Preface to the Preface"(?) of the Doctrine and Covenants did not refer to the "Church" as an institution.

Also, before "President of the Corporation of the President..." the "Leader" was simply a Trustee-in-Trust. The sad commentary on the whole thing is that a REAL PROPHET would have seen this thing coming [from] a mile away!

Some have jokingly said that Christ--the Real Head(?)--is more a "Union Organizer" than a "company man": how else would one account for the simple yet direct wording of the command to

Organize Yourselves.

Instead, the people "created a monster: a non-living, non-breathing, soul-less organization [ie, institution]"

What works in the "Gentile World" has no place in the realm of religion!
[This reminds me of how God's People Israel "lusted after a king" because it was what all the people around them had--and THEY wanted one, too!]

Conclusion: I think that it is tragically too late for them to return to square one and re-think their "position" on things--Pandora's Box is open and there is no closing it!.

Subject: Open palm vs. closed fist
Date: May 28 07:37
Author: Jezebel
Remember the old allegory about having a handful of sand? [or was it water?]

As long as you keep your palm open, you can have a handful.

But as soon as you close your fingers hard around it and form
a fist, the sand starts running and you can't keep it inside
your fist. The harder you press, the more you lose.

Eventually, you are losing everything.

The COB seem to have forgotten that lesson.


Subject: Great post! You touched on some important points!
Date: May 28 09:07
Author: Jeff Cohen
You said,
"The church is losing it's local culture and activities. What fun there was in Mormonism has been driven out."

So true...was an active member for 33 years in the south. We have raised 3 great and grown kids. Funny how we used to accredit all our success with them to the Mormon church, and NO credit to ourselves for all the work WE did with them. WE were at their crossroads in life, NOT the holy brethren SLC. WE were their culture NOT Mormonism as we were convinced from the walnut pulpits at the SL HQ.

Activities for the young folks many years ago growing up were great...parents loved participating...the teenagers couldn't wait for those dances, etc. It was lots of fun seeing your kids have a good time.

Then, instead of dimmed lights for dancing, operating room bright lights came on in the cultural hall, the mid-thigh shorts at girl's camp became mid-calf (and this was YEARS before those Capri deals ladies are wearing now were popular. You had to cut off good pants so your daughters wouldn't sweat to death. We have high humidity here on the Atlantic.) Guys had to date a harem with other guys instead of trusting themselves to be alone with a girl.

The piercing deals, no dating until 16 & THEN only with a group, no coke, no tank tops, having to wear dresses that looked like something out of the Kingston clan calico closet just killed it for the girls in our area of the south. You wouldn't believe what was spread around town by the local leaders about a girl who wore a 2 piece swimwear or spaghetti straps to a prom...or a guy washing his car in a tank top...forget trying to slap some paint on your house on Sunday...and how quick the Stake President was calling to see why you & your family had a dinner spread on a blanket at the local park on Sunday.

As for the sons, none of mine served an LDS mission. Went to college instead & being weekend warriors/active duty military and contributing to community instead of recruiting for LDSdom....they thought it not a good financial plan to go for 2 years at their expense & miss going to college while they still had a sharp young brain. They wanted to be normal and make friends...

Too much waste of an important time in their lives.

One thing my son said that rings like a gong in my head...he said looking back at his friends that served missions not being able to call home and all the OTHER restrictions put on them for their 2 year mission stint looks really cultish to him now...even the guys in Iraq can e-mail home at will, even call home, watch TV, etc. That keeps them going.

He said under the critical events ongoing in Iraq, it's that knowing that his family is a phone call or an e-mail away. What is SO peculiar about a mission that you can't be your age and do common everyday things? He is glad he didn't serve a mission and says it's totally ridiculous what the COP makes those guys do without to be totally dependant on the church during a time of being away from your family. He asked me what was the church afraid of? I agree.

Yes, they are losing these young folks. I have only one daughter still LDS. She is as staunch a Mormon as you can be...even SHE is now having doubts. She sees that people can have a cocktail/beer and be responsible, living life like a nun because of a scarcity of LDS RM's is absurd when there's decent young guys her age that are non-LDS out there and that she looks great in a sleeveless shirt.

The Mormon church wreaked havoc on my generation making us think that we should have our necks slit for revealing a couple of handshakes & viewing a monotonous movie repetitively...avoiding any place that's not an LDS cultural hall for your family entertainment and giving your children's inheritance to the brethren.

You are right in that the COP is losing there control...the internet is reaching more people than their "God's army", families are learning THAT they can keep their own 10 percent, do great in guiding their families themselves and that sex is not just there to breed more Mormons. What a great day it is...

Just glad I don't have MY name on the deeds for all those buildings.

Jeff Cohen


Subject: It's an old adage about organizations...
Date: May 28 10:49
Author: Baura
...that eventually the loyalties shift from the GOALS of the organization to the STRUCTURE of the organization. The Morg is a perfect example of that adage.

Subject: Exactly! The leadership is aware of the problem but can't do anything about it
Date: May 28 14:23
Author: Bye Bye Morgie
The church administration has become a huge Frankenstiens monster. General Authorities, Apostles, and Prophets come and go, but Church Office Building Administration survives every change of leadership and goes on it's merry way.

Like any big beurocracy, it runs itself as long as there is money in the accounts. They sometimes go on for years before they fall out of the picture.

Maybe Mormonism is like Polaroid. Always had a niche until the climate of it's market drastically changed and fell out of the picture over night.

Subject: It seemeth that Thou understandeth
Date: May 29 20:55
Author: shake spear
(at least "in measure").

What people usually fail to understand is that Christ never commanded those early converts to Mormonism (for they were ALL converts) to "make for yourselves a beautiful and comely organization for to worship (as a substitute for worshipping Me)", saith the Lord.

Such a simple thing to do: just keeping it simple. But, they decided to twist around Jesus' instructions and create a monster (that would--and will--eventually haunt them) instead of just plain following His "advice" to

Organize yourselves.

Note: I think Christ is more of a Union Man (Steel Worker, maybe?) than anything else. He definitely spurned the corporate boys of HIS day:

the Pharisees of the Sanhedrin!

Subject: I said in my post above Gordo is perfectly aware, but can't do anything about it.
Date: May 29 20:00
Author: Bye Bye Morgie
Nobody can pull rank more in the church than the prophet. If he can't fix the problem, nobody can. Believe me, what I posted here isn't news to people in the COB. Sit down and have a nice chat with some who work there who are willing to talk. You will hear the same thing.

Subject: When I worked for BYU...
Date: May 29 18:48
Author: Out by God
...the administration decided to do an audit of sorts to find out just what they were funding. They were truly surprised to find out how the money was being spent on campus. It seemed that every opportunity for someone to start "building an empire" had been taken advantage of. It never failed: justification didn't result in money - money resulted in justification.

They tried to constantly review everything to keep the focus where it was supposed to be, but even what the focus was "supposed" to be was hotly debated.

The issue was power and careers and too many millionaires signing their wills over to the Y.

Subject: Exactly, if an organization is awash in money, corruption and incompetence grows
Date: May 29 20:05
Author: Bye Bye Morgie
BYU is a good example but how much bigger is the problem at Church Headquarters? The problem I see is dissatisfaction at the ward level and huge cash flow, incompetence, and corruption at church headquarters.

The Mormon church has plenty of money but that can be it's downfall in the end.

Subject: Salt Lake has never lost control of its members' minds. 
 

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