| Subject: | divorce because spouse leaves the church |
| Date: | Jan 05 14:20 |
| Author: | andy |
| Mail Address: |
| My wife (who is a wavering Mormon as well) and I
(very much wavering Mormon) were talking to my Bro in Law who is
constantly in search of a bride. I think he wants to get married because
in his warped view of heaven it is the only way to "reach the
highest level" He is seriously dating a younger girl (18, he is 25)
and we asked him if she decided to somehow change her heart and leave
the church for some reason, she is still the same girl, does not drink,
smoke, or cuss....would you stay with her? His answer,,,,"NO, I would divorce her!" We asked even if kids are involved?? He said YES! What really makes me mad is he works with kids from broken families!! He got really upset and could not believe that we would not divorce each other if one of us decided to leave the church!!! My wife called and was chatting with her mom, and the conversation came up and her mom agreed with the son, she would divorce her husband of 40 years if he left the church!!! Has anyone ever encountered this or is this just two people who are very selfish? This incident has just about put the last nail in my coffin of belief! |
| Subject: | Final nail in the coffin for me... |
| Date: | Jan 05 15:05 |
| Author: | Truth Without Fear |
| Mail Address: |
| The marriage has been strained for years, but my
"loss of the spirit and abandonment of our joint core beliefs"
will probably be the last straw. The critical issue for me will be negotiating with the mother of my 5 children what they will be taught, when, and by whom. This is a very tenuous time for me, since I am a VERY involved dad. |
| Subject: | Re: Are you knew here? (cuss)... |
| This sad story repeats itself here again and again. God's true church my ass. |
| Yes, I am new. This is just proof to me that people love a "church" more than God. Or even their spouse. |
| Subject: | YOU NAILED IT, andy. Their emphasis on Loyalty over 'love' [sic] destroys families all the time. [language] |
| Date: | Jan 05 15:59 |
| Author: | Langdon |
| You watch enough "unequally yoked"
(Mormon/unbelieving) couples, and you'll see LOTS of marriages get
destroyed by that type of shallow, unChristian, cold-hearted devotion to
a freaking DOGMA over a PERSON. Normal people who comprehend what LOVE means would find that unbelievable - as you might right now - but among Mormons it happens constantly. Stick around here, and you'll meet MANY of us whose spouse's fake 'pseudo-love' was less true than her Pavlovian conditioned loyalty to the Profit Sneer and Pervaricator, Goebbels B. Fucking Hinckley. And if *that* isn't evidence of cult-think, then there is no cult on the earth. |
| Subject: | My (ex)wife divorced me for that very reason |
| Date: | Jan 05 16:21 |
| Author: | Greg in LA |
| Mail Address: |
| I'll give the details if you want, but that's the reason she wanted a divorce. |
| Subject: | It's a common threat, but often a bluff... |
| Date: | Jan 05 16:29 |
| Author: | Joe |
| Mail Address: |
| My wife threatened divorce about a year ago, but
never followed through. She claimed she prayed about it and God told her
to stay with me. Yeah, right. Anyway, our marriage has actually been
very good since the dust settled. My advice when a spouse threatens
divorce, call their bluff. If they are like my wife, they will realize
divorce over religious issues is silly. If they really do divorce you
over religious differences, you're probably better off divorced. I can't
think of any good reason to stay with a person like that. But that's
just my opinion. |
| Subject: | Going through this right now as we speak....wish me luck |
| Date: | Jan 05 16:49 |
| Author: | Chris |
| Mail Address: |
| Wife is wavering...one day she is for me...but on
the next she is against me...basically all over my disaffection with the
church....I love my wife ..and sadly she loves me too....but she loves
the church and its teachings...as much or more than me...Sad fact...its
the ideal that the church teaches that is so attractive to her...the
forever family...because I've given up on the church she can't have that
ideal...and staying with me she can't have it either...so in Mormon speak...its ok to
dissolve an earthly family to save an eternal family... |
| Subject: | Happened to me, dude. Families first my @ss. n/t |
| Subject: | Oh yes it happens all right |
| Date: | Jan 05 18:41 |
| Author: | SteveH |
| Mail Address: |
| and against the counsel of the bishop in my case.
Seems my ex had a "witness from the spirit" that since I had
resigned membership in the Mormon church, she should take the children
and leave me. After all, I had ruined her celestial marriage and had
been overcome by Satan. Once I saw the extent to which she was willing to attempt manipulation (by taking my children from me to compel my return to Mormonism), her lack of love for me, and her loyalty to her other husbands in the spirit (Joseph and Brigham), I decided to file for divorce first. I loved her, but she had concentrated all of Mormonism's toxins within herself. I still think I chose the right pain to live with. |
| Subject: | church destroys marriages |
| Date: | Jan 05 18:49 |
| Author: | eyedoc |
| Mail Address: |
| although there are other matters complicating the
issue, my marriage basically ended because I left the church and we grew
apart. Getting back together after we separated was not an option mainly
because of our differing views regarding her cult. Thank god none of our
four kids decided in favor of Mormonism. |
| Subject: | All talk.... |
| Date: | Jan 05 19:16 |
| Author: | Mateo |
| I've known plenty of people who would say the same
thing, but never actually do it. It seems to be one of those things
people say to show how faithful they are, but when it comes down to it,
they will only do what their bishop tells them to do. Mateo |
| Subject: | This one strikes very close to home |
| Date: | Jan 05 19:30 |
| Author: | Wag |
| Not because I was ever taught this consciously but
because when I determined for myself that the church and god were
frauds, I was terrified of telling my wife because I firmly believed
that she would kick me to the curb that same day. I couldn't tell you
why I thought this but I do know that it was really tough to tell her.
When she answered as she did (see my story on the story board), I was
suddenly rejuvenated and began once again to believe in the value of
humanity. This is a great topic. Can't wait to read the rest of the thread. --Wag-- |
| Subject: | Not all talk |
| Date: | Jan 05 19:38 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac |
| Mail Address: |
| This happened to a friend of mine. Theo, Michelle, SL Cabbie and Benji Smith have all met him. A good husband and an even better father. Breaks my heart and make me mad. Here's the deal, at least how I see it. People in TBM marriages CAN change. But only if it is be become more righteous, more obedient, more subservient, more faithful to the church. Decide to follow the dictates of your own conscience is to risk your 'eternal family'. I can see it from the other side, but not without my 'child-like faith' blinders on. Which is why, more and more, I have trouble having respect for grown ups who profess to KNOW the church is true, js is prophet, GBH is prophet, BoM is true, blah, blah, blah.... Family first, my ASS!!!! |
| Subject: | You all need to get a copy of this past weekends "Church News". GBH tells women to STAY with husbands who leave the church. |
| Date: | Jan 05 21:20 |
| Author: | John Corrill |
| Mail Address: |
| I came across a copy of the "Church News"
this weekend. In it, President Hinckley gives specific instructions to
women to stay (yes stay) with a husband who leaves the church. Tell your
wives they won't be following the prophet if they seek a divorce. I can't remember the exact wording, sorry, but it was a pretty direct statement. |
| Subject: | Please post Church News article! |
| Date: | Jan 06 00:12 |
| Author: | Desperado |
| Mail Address: |
| I would love to see this article, but I can't get
the Church News. Could somebody please post the text of this article? I
desperately need to show this to my TBM wife! Thanks. |
| Subject: | The quote; but it's not quite what I thought... |
| Date: | Jan 06 11:52 |
| Author: | John Corrill |
| Mail Address: |
| "You women, be good women, be good mothers. Be
kind and gracious and generous. Strengthen your children with your faith
and your testimony. Lift them up. Help them to walk through the troubled
ways of the world as they grow in this very difficult age. Support,
sustain, uphold, and bless your husbands with your love and your
encouragement, and the Lord will bless you. Even if they are not members
of the Church, bless them with kindness and reach out to them every good
way that you can. The chances are that they will become members of the
Church before they reach the time they die. It may be a long time and
you may have a lot to put up with, but if that happens, you will think
it is all worth it." — From member meeting, Philadelphia Pa.,
Oct. 25, 2002 |
| Subject: | It happened to me also. I lost everything but thru all the |
| Date: | Jan 05 22:11 |
| Author: | David |
| Mail Address: |
| pain I'm much happier now as a result. It was pure
hell while I was going thru it though. Suicide was constantly on my mind
at the time and looked like a very good option at the time. I'm glad
that I toughed it out and didn't pull the trigger. I'm a much stronger
and more confident person for having gone thru it all. Remember my
friend, what doesn't kill you only serves to make you stronger!! Hang in
there. Many of us here have "been there done that" in your
exact situation. |
| Subject: | Re: divorce because Gordon BH is listening because of what was in the Church News. |
| Date: | Jan 05 22:12 |
| Author: | enough already |
| Mail Address: |
| Think he doesn't have someone viewing this board?
How often has information/suggestions been posted and fairly soon a
change or 'direction' comes out on the very subject discussed on this
board. Now, of course, this is another change by the prophet....before it was be married to someone who can take you to the top kingdom...the higher in the priesthood the better. Now, a different tune is being whistled. Anybody else think this? |
| Subject: | Maybe some of those old white men in SLC have finally developed consciences |
| Date: | Jan 06 02:45 |
| Author: | btdt |
| Mail Address: |
| They know the church is a fraud and don't want to be
responsible for all those broken marriages and fatherless children. It would be nice if that was the case. But probably the real reason is that they don't want all those newly single mothers claiming welfare from the church..... |
| Subject: | There has to be more to it then don't leave your spouse if they leave the church. |
| Date: | Jan 06 03:09 |
| Author: | Primrose |
| Mail Address: |
| You know as well as I do they never give up, so it
probably means to stick with the wayward spouse and they will probably
come back in the fold if you just hang in there Want to bet ?. |
| Subject: | Re: different for women |
| Date: | Jan 06 03:46 |
| Author: | mormorelsa |
| My husband, a TBM, noted the other day that our
marriage is better in many ways now that I am in the process of leaving.
Probably because the marriage has become an equal partnership, now that
he does not have to live up to being the head of the family and I his
obeying wife. We do not have to play that game any more. He noticed that
I love him more now - and that is true. It is so good to realize that he
is not more important than I, he has no power over me, I do not have any
special obligation to obey. He is not in any way my savior. I can love
him with his faults and advantages for whom he is. We live in Sweden and
the culture here maybe also makes it easier. Of course the Church is
colored by the values in our society as well. |
| Subject: | Since divorce is so common, the church probably is just an excuse for marriages that wd have ended anyway. |
| Date: | Jan 06 08:57 |
| Author: | PMF |
| People who understand the word commitment, don't get
divorced. I know that sounds hard, but I believe it. I think people who get divorced and blame the church are wrong. I think they are scapegoating the church. I go to a different church than my wife, but I will never leave the marriage. And I have dealt with many things that some of you have as well. LOL, my wife has said some things that are malicious and flat out wrong about what I think and how I feel. One time the Bishop "called" us into his office over a disagreement. The night before my wife and I agreed the bishop was being an ass. However, in front of the bishop my wife sided with him! I laugh at it now, but back then it wasn't very funny. Yes, I do think there are legitimate reasons for divorce. I do believe if you are willing to stay, but the other is not, you may not be able to prevent a divorce. There are other reasons for divorce as well. However, blaming the church, is not dealing with the real reason. There are too many examples on this board that prove my point. Some people have hung in there when it got tuff and are still married. Some people jumped ship as soon as the water started to get rocky. That's my opinion, for what its worth. |
| Subject: | You need to pay more attention to the world around you |
| Date: | Jan 06 11:41 |
| Author: | Mojo Jojo |
| Mail Address: |
| While I respect your opinion and experience, I
believe the former to be wrong--dead wrong. Question: How many stories,
like those told on the Board, would you have to hear before you accepted
that the LDS Church IS a cause, proximate cause, or intervening factor
in the dissolution of marriages? It's one thing to hold an opinion based
on one's own experience, but it is another to continue to hold it in the
face over substantial conflicting evidence. By the way, I also disagree that it's as easy as simply having a commitment. Life is complicated, and it is not reduced so simply and glibly as you've done. Your experience by no means circumscribes the whole of human experience. |
| Subject: | One last comment on this--it takes TWO people to make a marriage... |
| Date: | Jan 06 11:46 |
| Author: | Greg in LA |
| Mail Address: |
| If one of the people wants out for WHATEVER reason
(LDS church or not) the marriage will end. It doesn't matter how committed YOU may be to your marriage if the other person is more committed to their church than to you, your family, and the institution of marriage. That's the truth, PERIOD. |
| Subject: | My husband looks at it like this |
| Date: | Jan 06 11:56 |
| Author: | Froggie |
| Mail Address: |
| The belief system contains the all-encompassing
concept for eternal family. As I am a nonbeliever and he is a believer,
he has several times told me that we would not be spending eternities
together because our goals are so different. So it would make sense to
me that if a person is looking at a long-term goal of marriage through
eternity, and a spouse abandons that celestial goal, the believer would
consider all bets to be off. Better to cut the ties now rather than put
entire family in eternal risk. It is easy to see why an abandonment of belief would create a divisive wedge in a marriage when you look at it from the believer's big-picture implication. I spend a great deal of my time focusing on the stronger portions of our relationship as a diversionary tactic away from the belief system nonsense. Big green hugs, Froggie |
| Subject: | Another marriage may be biting the dust... (longish) |
| Date: | Jan 04 01:09 |
| Author: | Jaxon |
| Only this time, it's mine........ Over the past 2 months or so my wife an I have been struggling. It started with the miscarriage of our second child. She was pretty devastated and fell back to her mom and the church for support. It didn't affect me as much as it did her. It was 8 weeks into a pregnancy, we didn't have a name, sex, clothes, new room, etc.. After this happened, I noticed this need in her for a man in the house to bless and baptize our kid. Her apathy and my apostasy were no longer acceptable. Well, just this past week she miscarried again. I though "I know somehow church is going to play into this". Her and I have been fighting a lot lately, church has been the main topic. Just tonight she said "I've been thinking, maybe there is a reason for two miscarriages". Anyway, we had a long talk. She is fixated on eternal families and how "If we had been married in the temple, we would be able to see our lost kids again someday". I expressed to her that I believe eternal marriage and families is a fallacy and she would never get me in a temple. I explained that going to the temple would me she would be living polygamy in the afterlife, a comment that yielded mixed reaction. I also delved into the fact that it's bullshit to sit and have to choose between your husband and the church. All in all, our talk ended with her leaving to take a shower. I sarcastically stated "okay, conversation over then? Great conclusion we came too huh?". She then said "I cannot tell you whether I want my marriage to continue in this amount of time." So, we'll see where this takes us. Thanks for reading. |
| Subject: | Re: Another marriage may be biting the dust... (longish) |
| Date: | Jan 04 01:46 |
| Author: | Gaea |
| Mail Address: |
| I feel for you, two miscarriages can be very
devastating and put a tremendous stress on a marriage. Your wife needs
your emotional support and understanding. Perhaps a non lds grief counselor
can help with a few sessions. Good luck. |
| Subject: | Re: Another marriage may be biting the dust... (longish) |
| Date: | Jan 04 01:49 |
| Author: | Jaxon |
| I've thought about that. I doubt she would go. We
live in S. Utah, her whole TBM family lives around us, and she falls
back on them. She gets her support from them and feels that nonLDS just
don't understand... Church and the thought of being able to see the
miscarried kids in the afterlife is her grief counseling. |
| Subject: | My EX used to bring the church (or lack of) up in arguments... |
| Date: | Jan 04 02:04 |
| Author: | Mr. Happy |
| Mail Address: |
| to try to support her point of view or guilt me out.
Once she was bitching to me about not having enough money and if we paid
a full tithe we would be blessed with more than we could spend. I shut
her up by saying if that were the case, perhaps we should investigate
which church Bill Gates attends and follow his example. It is sad that the church has been able to brainwash to the point that members believe that bad things occur because of non-compliance to the selfish and vengeful Mormon God. If I were in your shoes, I would use the miscarriages as PROOF that there was no Mormon God. Surely if there was, there would be NO miscarriages because of the great need to have bodies on this earth for all of the spirits. If you were unworthy to be parents (due to lack of devotion), surely the Mormon God would not permit your wife to even become pregnant. I am sorry to hear about your wife's miscarriages. It is truly one of life's disappointments to prepare for a child and have that snapped away. I feel for both of you. I am also sad that YOUR "unworthiness" might be blamed for the misfortunes. For your sake, I hope not. Good luck. |
| Subject: | I wish you and your wife the best. Here's the best insight I can give. |
| Date: | Jan 04 02:22 |
| Author: | Elizabeth |
| Mail Address: |
| Jaxon wrote: > Only this time, it's mine........ > > Over the past 2 months or so my wife an I have been struggling. It started with the miscarriage of our second child. She was pretty devastated and fell back to her mom and the church for support. A miscarriage in and of itself is an extremely difficult and painful thing to deal with. I can empathize with her based on my own similar experiences (it's a long story). She needs support and empathy. She needs you. Did she try to come to you for support? Why or why not? The church and her mother can be additional sources of support, but you two might need to learn how to be one another's primary source of support. I don't know everything about your story, but I'm only speaking from personal experience. When our marriage is at it's worst, I find myself turning to everybody but my husband for support. Usually it's when I feel like he'd only invalidate my feelings or play the blame game. Or I feel like he just doesn't understand. The same thing happens when he turns inward and doesn't want to talk to me about issues, usually pertaining to religion. He's afraid of being invalidated or criticized. One of the reasons why we're attending counseling is so we can learn how to support and respect one another's feelings and beliefs, even if we don't always see eye-to-eye. > Well, just this past week she miscarried again. I though "I know somehow church is going to play into this". Her and I have been fighting a lot lately, church has been the main topic. Just tonight she said "I've been thinking, maybe there is a reason for two miscarriages". Anyway, we had a long talk. She is fixated on eternal families and how "If we had been married in the temple, we would be able to see our lost kids again someday". Tell her "If you're righteous, according to you you'll be exalted with or without me. You'll see your children" (She'll get a new husband in the hereafter if she's righteous. Remember, for a TBM, the LORD will work out everything in the end for his faithful saints, right? If not, maybe it's time to reevaluate their religion.). I've told my husband that it won't matter that he was married to an apostate in this life once he's dead. All of his polygamous wives will keep him too happy to remember his apostate wife who is roasting in hell:-) But seriously, my MIL is an active TBM who is married to a nevermo. She knows that the Lord will work out everything in the end, and she will have her children in the hereafter. I guess her bishop told her something. Maybe you could show your wife an article in the Ensign about finding happiness in a mixed-marriage. Not that it contains advice that wasn't already offered here, but because it was found in an authorized Mormon publication and therefore in her mind it's probably more credible than a bunch of ex-mos are:-) I'll try to find a link if you'd like. >I expressed to her that I believe eternal marriage and families is a fallacy and she would never get me in a temple. I explained that going to the temple would me she would be living polygamy in the afterlife, a comment that yielded mixed reaction. I also delved into the fact that it's bullshit to sit and have to choose between your husband and the church. Maybe I'm completely mistaken (forgive me if I am), but it almost sounds like you want to sway her opinion about some of her strongest religious beliefs. It may bother you that she believes what she does (understandably so. I get bothered at times, too) but please, show respect for her beliefs and ask for the same from her. Create some boundaries together like avoiding talking about sensitive issues that set both of you off. A counselor could assist you in doing this. By the way it may take a few tries when shopping for the right therapist. My advice is to find a non-Mormon. Mine is Jewish and both of us like her. > All in all, our talk ended with her leaving to take a shower. I sarcastically stated "okay, conversation over then? Great conclusion we came too huh?". She then said "I cannot tell you whether I want my marriage to continue in this amount of time." I feel for you, I do. And I can relate to feeling upset if there is no resolution or conclusion after my husband and I have had conversations similar to yours. But hang in there. Sometimes it's not the conclusion that's important, so much as it is the process of talking. If you want to stay with her, expect an emotional roller-coaster. Some days can be wonderful while you'll feel on the brink of calling it "quits" on other days. We just started counseling. The first session was terrible. We both came home miserable. But as long as we both feel that our marriage is worth saving, we won't give up. I'm not sure where you are in your relationship. You two are the only ones who can decide whether the marriage is worth fighting for. It sounds like you wanted your wife to tell you that she wanted to work things out, just before she went to take a shower. She sounds very confused, but so was my husband who later pleaded with me not to leave when I was the one who was going to give up on the whole thing. My point is in all this blabbering, you have hope. |
| Subject: | Having a miscarriage is emotional distress but also Physical |
| Date: | Jan 04 03:47 |
| Author: | Primrose |
| Mail Address: |
| When your body starts to rev up to have a baby and
then it aborts itself it is hard to adjust, the Hormones are confused
and need to get back to normal. That can cause depression . I had three miscarriages in a row. We were active Mormons and I had had three children with no problems but had a different husband when I had the three miscarriages. It was a hard time trying to figure out why it happened, especially with the Church thrown in there, saying they were needed in the Celestial Kingdom and did not have to go through this life and all that stuff they come up with when people die . I was Pregnant when we went through the Temple and lost it. I had a hysterectomy when I was 29 because they could not stop the bleeding after the last miscarriage. It has nothing to do with if you are an active Mormon, it happens to every religion and race. What your wife needs is understanding from you on how upset she is that she lost the babies. You said you were not all that upset as she is. Pretend you are upset unless you have already made her believe it was not all that big a deal to you. To a women it is a big deal. If you don't give her any support in her feelings then she will go elsewhere and it had nothing to do with the church but has a lot to do with her thinking you do not support her feelings and it sounds like you made her feel like you don't really care. Sounds like you blew it in the Sympathy department. That is my take on your situation |
| Subject: | She's feeling devastated and wants reassurances, not resistance. |
| Date: | Jan 04 08:40 |
| Author: | Stray Mutt |
| She went back to her mother and church for comfort
and solace. In times like that it doesn't really matter that the comfort
and solace are all in her head, that the thing she clings to for
reassurance is bogus. What matters is whether you are there to be
just as supportive and understanding. You don't comfort anyone by
loading them down with shit they don't want to hear -- even if it's
true. Remember, religion is still around because it helps people cope
with the craziness and pain of life. There's a natural urge for some
all-loving, all-powerful super parent to come and kiss our booboos and
make everything better. If you hope to compete with your wife's fantasy,
then you need to send some selfless parental love her way. Besides, if
you really love her, how can you stand to see her suffer? How can you
not take her in your arms and reassure her everything is going to be
alright? Think about it. If your marriage is on the road to Splitsville,
is it really about the church, or is there some other more fundamental
flaw? |
| Subject: | I was going to say the same thing |
| Date: | Jan 04 09:27 |
| Author: | lurker |
| Mail Address: |
| Seems like it's more important to the original
poster to be "right" than to be a good husband. Methinks his wife deserves better. |
| Subject: | Just to clear this up... |
| Date: | Jan 04 10:56 |
| Author: | Jaxon |
| Falling back on church and the mother in law has
been a pattern with my wife for years. I'm not in denial, I provide
emotional support. I did not post a thing about the good parts of our
relationship, which are many. We have been together for about 7 years. You cannot understand the relationship between MIL and Wife unless you see it. An example would be when our first kid was born. She had to stay overnight at the hospital and could have one guest. She didn't choose me. She had mom, not me, at both miscarriage surgeries. It's almost like she doesn't let me bear the load of emotional support. I know what you're going to say here, that this is a pattern of me not caring or being unsupportive, but I assure you this is not the case. As for reassurances, not resistance, I assure you, I am not berating her about her stupid religion. When both miscarriages happened, I suggested she get a blessing. My shirt has been soaked with her tears many time throughout this. All in all, thanks for the responses. |
| Subject: | You said this isn't affecting you like it did her. |
| Date: | Jan 04 11:31 |
| Author: | Lilith |
| Mail Address: |
| She was pregnant for two months. Maybe her mother
understands this better and that is why your wife wants her. She knows
how you feel--not as affected. Maybe this part has little to do with the
church. |
| Subject: | Mutt, you're absolutely right. |
| Date: | Jan 04 10:23 |
| Author: | Wag |
| Thanks for posting that commentary. It becomes a
matter of what is more important. Being right? Or being married to the
one you love? There are both sides to this coin, his and hers. There is going to have to be some give on the part of one of them in order to keep the marriage together and improve it, long-term. For now, Jaxon, you may wish to be the one to provide the understanding and compassion your wife needs. If she is going to her family for that, it may be an indicator that the relationship between the two of you is not going well. Counseling, as suggested by others, would be in order. After all is said and done, however, the coin gets turned over and she must decide whether or not her marriage is more important or if being right is more important. Problem here is she has the Morg telling her that her life and her marriage are worth diddly squat unless you're both toeing the line. You're in an awkward position here. I hope you can get it resolved satisfactorily. --Wag-- |
| Subject: | Re: Another marriage may be biting the dust... (longish) |
| Date: | Jan 04 11:18 |
| Author: | Davey |
| Mail Address: |
| Jaxon, Please know that your friends you met at the Ex Mo Group last month are here to support you and we look forward to seeing you today at 2pm. |
| Subject: | Ahhhh.... |
| Date: | Jan 04 11:21 |
| Author: | Jaxon |
| I can't go... No, I work for ABC 4 News Salt Lake, and they have something for me to cover today up near Delta. Last minute thing. I really was looking forward to going to the meeting, but work calls. I'll be there next month. |
| Subject: | Too bad, Jaxon.... |
| Date: | Jan 04 11:51 |
| Author: | Hellen |
| Mail Address: |
| ....you can't be to our meeting today. I was looking
forward to talking with you again and seeing how things were going. I'm
sorry things seem to be deteriorating in some ways. Although, sometimes
it takes "positive disintegration" (I believe it is called) to
build a new foundation. Well, here's a cyber hug, anyway... (((((((( )))))))) (I've had a miscarriage, too, and it can be pretty tough.) Your neighbor across the holler, Hellen |
| Subject: | 2 p.m.?? I thought it was at 12:15.n/t |
| Date: | Jan 04 12:46 |
| Author: | Elizabeth |
| Mail Address: |
| Subject: | Nope! It's 2:00 PM... MST (that's .... |
| Date: | Jan 04 14:03 |
| Author: | Hellen |
| Mail Address: |
| ....Mountain Standard Time, NOT Mormon
Standard Time!) Hope to see you there! |
| Subject: | Hellen, am I thinking of the wrong group? |
| Date: | Jan 04 18:38 |
| Author: | Elizabeth |
| Mail Address: |
I thought Davey was referring to the MIT meeting at the UU church on Highland drive and about 6600 south. Which one was he talking about? I might be interested. |
| Subject: | Sorry to be so long.... |
| Date: | Jan 04 20:50 |
| Author: | Hellen |
| Mail Address: |
| ... in getting back to you. I had to leave for the 2
PM Post Mormon meeting in St. George. It's a group of ExMo's from
southern Utah, northern Arizona, and eastern Nevada. We meet every 1st
Sunday of the month. (This is our 3rd time together.) We'll be meeting
next Feb. 1 at 11:00 AM (this time only) at the Hampton Inn, just off
Exit 8, the middle interchange in St. George. |
| Subject: | My somewhat unorthodox suggestion... |
| Date: | Jan 04 11:35 |
| Author: | glad to be free |
| Mail Address: |
| It may not be emotional support she wants from you
as much as leadership. She might feel a bit like things are out of
control and wants the feeling of someone taking charge of the situation.
It seems to me from your posts that you do love and support your wife,
but you kind of allow her and her kin to run the show. How about putting
your foot down? It sounds like you haven't got anything to lose. The Bible says that a man and woman should leave their parents and cleave one to another. I think Mormons still consider that part to be translated correctly. Another thought: your wife doesn't rely on you for two reasons. One, the Mormon church is undermining your marriage by telling your wife that you are unacceptable as her leader because you aren't a believer. Two, you aren't providing the leadership that she wants. (I know she wants leadership because that is what all Mormon women are told that they want.) If you can figure out a way to provide her the leadership she craves without betraying yourself I think that might help. |
| Subject: | I agree with this advice |
| Date: | Jan 04 11:47 |
| Author: | Gracie |
| and as for having her mother there instead of you--I
wouldn't jump to conclusions there. My husband loves me totally, of that
I have no doubt. But when I am really sick, or recovering from
childbirth, I want my Mommy! If we were ever to have another child, I do not want my husband to be there with me. It's too traumatic for him, and he is of no use to me at all. For millennia, women have comforted each other during these times. I would much prefer to be around women after a miscarriage than around my husband. It has nothing to do with my love for him. There's just an empathy missing, and you guys can't do anything about it. Be strong for her. Be devoted. Don't argue with her at this time. Her body needs to heal. Take care of her. Two miscarriages in such a short time must be physically, emotionally and spiritually devastating. |
| Subject: | Who said that good Mormons ALONE will be with each other in the hereafter? |
| Date: | Jan 04 12:00 |
| Author: | EOTC |
| Mail Address: |
| ..I know the old missionary reply, most wedding vows
say: "Until death do you part." But what's the source for this
statement? Does it really have some spiritual authority behind it? Does a loving God really break up good families in the hereafter? So maybe Marriage has some altered definition in a heavenly setting, but not SEE each other, not be WITH each other? Does committed love no longer count on the other side? This is the work of the "Monster God" Dr. Scott Peck describes! The church substitutes pure Bull Shit for common sense and then shackles it's members with ungodly fear! |
| Subject: | Exactly! n/t |
| Date: | Jan 04 12:49 |
| Author: | Elizabeth |
| Mail Address: |
| Subject: | EXACTLY, Exactly! n/t |
| Date: | Jan 04 17:50 |
| Author: | Mad As Hell |
| Mail Address: |
| Subject: | I'm sure there's more to the story but |
| Date: | Jan 04 12:06 |
| Author: | LauraD. |
| maybe the two of you should concentrate on the main
issue - her miscarriages. After seeing a medical doctor and determining
why could it be that she is having problems carrying to term then go and
see a counselor, non LDS, and work through the emotions of these
miscarriages. The church really isn't an issue regarding that no matter
how much she wants to make it so. Stay off the topic of the church at
all costs and focus on each other for a while and once the hormones
settle and her health returns then talk. Good luck. |
| Subject: | Re: Another marriage may be biting the dust... (longish) |
| Date: | Jan 04 15:03 |
| Author: | Switz1 |
| Mail Address: |
| Jaxon, let me share a little something with you. My
husband and I got married (we weren't Mormon) and right away I got
pregnant. 6 weeks later I miscarried. Got pregnant again and lost that
one two. It was devastating!! BUT I had a sympathetic doctor and some
medical background myself. Whenever there is a spontaneous miscarriage there was something wrong and the baby couldn't grow properly. Her body was rejecting and expelling the remains. Now her hormones are raging as someone else mentioned. Her body was getting prepared for a long gestation and was interrupted in the process. She will blame YOU, the lack of the temple, her Mom, her Dad, HERSELF and anything and anyone else that pops into her mind. Go with the flow and cuddle her. YOU, being male, just are not coded to understand what she is going through. No matter how you try you can't REALLY FEEL what she is feeling. To you it is just a matter of "making another one". Actually YOU are correct BUT her mind and body are telling her differently. She was getting ready to have THAT one not a different one... it is in her genetic code and there is nothing that she can do about her feelings. BTW the PAIN of having a miscarriage is a gazillion times worse than giving regular birth. The uterus is saying "outta here" but the muscles are saying..."no, no, not yet" and are resisting. Some of her endocrine system is shooting out hormones to HELP the uterus reject the fetus and another part is shooting out hormones to PREVENT the rejection. She is in the middle of the war and can't do a thing about it. Now to the faith part..... ALL religions believe in some sort of Afterlife and that people will be together again. The Mormons did NOT invent that one! I do not believe that God EVER looks down, around or whatever, and thinks...."gee Jaxson and Suzie need to go to the temple so I will just keep throwing away babies until they see the lite". That is utter nonsense!! God doesn't CAUSE bad stuff to happen, in my belief, but He is certainly there to help us when it does. No matter how many kids the two of you eventually have, or she has she will ALWAYS remember the two she didn't have and wonder what they would have been like. She CAN'T forget them EVER. DO NOT try and tell her otherwise or you are in for a very rough time. Mother's truly don't remember the labor of childbirth but they ALWAYS remember the labor of losing a baby. They can push it back and go on with life but they NEVER forget. To us it is a death of OUR child, no matter that we never even got to see it. Please just try and "be there" for her, you don't even have to talk but you do need to listen. The reason she asked for her Mother was that her Mom understands and you just can't. Don't take it personally, it isn't your fault. You CAN tell her that you DO understand why she wanted her Mom though. You can also tell her that you also feel pain about losing a new son or daughter. She may not believe you but she will feel better knowing you said it. |
| Subject: | Swiz is absolutely right! |
| Date: | Jan 04 19:11 |
| Author: | free |
| Mail Address: |
| Be a man and cuddle her. It probably is a lot
hormonal but don't ever under-estimate the hormones of a mother! She will love you so much if you give her compassion. |
| Subject: | Two things... |
| Date: | Jan 04 16:20 |
| Author: | MaryCatherine |
| Mail Address: |
1) you should have joined her in the shower 2) You should have insisted on being the one at the hospital instead of her mother. This is a marriage, you are the next of kin, and she needs to start respecting that fact. As far as the hospital is concerned, you trump the mother in being the one for emotional support. Take charge. |
| Subject: | Well I had two miscarriages-- both at 12 weeks-- and I was emotionally distraught |
| Date: | Jan 04 19:04 |
| Author: | free |
| Mail Address: |
| at the time. I can't explain why, except that I
think it is so disappointing to have to go through all the morning
sickness, the mental preparation, and just all the hormonal changes.
Plus, the biggest reason is that a woman can feel very attached to the
baby growing in her (even though she can't feel the baby kick). Did you know that one out of four pregnancies occur in miscarriage? Women who have large families (10 children or more) have usually had a miscarriage or two. My personal feeling is that if your wife has been living healthy and eating well, then the miscarriage is likely to be a baby that was defective in the first place. It happens. I think it is nature's way of weeding out embryos that are not developing well. Still, women will grieve. I did and I remember burying my one baby embryo under a big oak tree. But at this stage in my life the grieving is long done and it seems looking back on it to be "not a big deal at all." Give her lots and lots of support in her current grief. She needs you. My mother who also miscarried thought I was ridiculous crying over my miscarriage and it made for rather ill feelings between the two of us at the time. Also, men, be strong in your belief but be even stronger in your love for your wives who are dedicated LDS. I was there. Just put your foot down if she tries to control or threaten you. You need to respect her where she is at in her life; after all, you did marry a TBM woman, did you not? |
| Subject: | Thanks for the replies |
| Date: | Jan 05 00:33 |
| I spent some time out of town today, and when I came
home there were 28 replies! Sheesh... First, I want to apologize. I posted my original message while feeling pretty pissed off. I think that lead many of you to believe that I am a callous, uncaring fool. This is not the case. The wife and I have a great relationship overall, and just avoid the subject of church and that has worked pretty well. I wouldn't say we engaged in an argument last night, more of an "airing of tension". I felt it, she felt it, and we both wanted to bring what was bothering us to the forefront. All in all, it was a good thing. Who know what's going to happen. I appreciate all advice given here. Thanks. |
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