| Subject: | Apostle's visit Security |
| Date: | Jun 17 2003 05:24 |
| Author: | cassie |
| Mail Address: |
| On Sunday Elder Eyring came out for a
"Regional" conference in Seattle (Bellevue, Renton, etc). This
time they held it via closed circuit TV rather than in a large venue and
only the people in the Renton North Stake Center (who had tickets) could
see him in person. During his talk he mentioned that in the future most
members of the church would spend their entire life without seeing a
living apostle so I thought I would drive the short distance from the
Bellevue Stake Center to the Renton one (behind the Seattle temple) and
see him in person after his talk. Silly me. As a convert to the church of over 15 years and someone who still actually believes in the spirit I often feel at church (I am also still endowed) I am far from naive and I don't actually believe much of the history of the church (my best friend in college is the grand daughter of the author of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and my best friend's is the closely related to the former editor of Sunstone - Eugene England) but the facts have never been the source of my faith so it doesn't usually bother me. I just assume that the leaders are often wrong and will come around some day. So obviously my beliefs are fairly complex. In any case when I arrived there he was having lunch already in the Relief Society room along with the Seattle Temple president (my former stake president)their wives and a select list of others. They had stationed men at every doorway to that side of the building as well as in the parking lot preventing anyone from even being in the same hallway as their lunch. I patiently waited for over and hour only to be told that no one would be allowed to shake his hand let alone ask him a question. A number of other people were making comments about how odd this was. One guy who was walking past mentioned, "oh aren't you on the A list?" and another who came out of the lunch proclaimed to us (I am not sure if he was being serious or not). Shake my hand since I just shook his maybe it will rub off on you. (Maybe he is a former Catholic:) I have worked on numerous political campaigns (both Presidential, , Senatorial and Congressional) and they always try to at least say hi to people. I am also positive that Christ himself actually spent time with "regular people" so why wouldn't an Apostle? This whole episode really shocked me to my core. My friend who is the relative of the former Salt Lake Temple and the relative of Eugene England had warned me that Apostle's never talk to regular people like me but I didn't realize it until that moment. What happened to God not being a respecter of persons? Aren't we all entitled to the Gifts of the Spirit? So why not to the presence of an Apostle? I had gone over simply to see him in person and not to ask him any one of my many questions concerning women (such as perhaps Eve is the bookend to Christ in that her sacrifice in the Garden of Eden brought us from a Spiritual existence to a Physical one and Christ's in the Garden of Gesthame brought us the chance to return from a physical one to a spiritual one. Or why are their always empty vases in the temple celestial rooms? Does it symbolize the empty womb? The women who should be exercising their priesthood? Or why do I always feel all dressed up with no place to go after receiving endowments? They tell us very specifically that we are "with the robe on the X shoulder you are prepared to to officiate in the ordinances of the Y Priesthood" (I am not breaking any covenants by saying that since it isn't a sign or a token) for both priesthoods(I am female obviously). And isn't it hypocritical of me to say I will keep my covenants and then not actually exercise the Priesthood after they endow me with it? In any case for some reason this incident has sort of crushed me. Its not that meeting him mattered to me all that much (I didn't try to get a ticket for the actual service) but that he wouldn't even meet people who waited like me for an hour and that he needed to have the entire half of the building guarded (apparently it is the normal procedure) I am the only member of the church in my entire family and my membership came at a huge cost in terms of my family relationships and my career as well as my social life. I had told my dad earlier in the week that I was going to go and meet the apostle and when I told him what happened he of course told me that any church like that I should quit. What do I become Catholic and support child abusing priests? They don't let the women hold the Priesthood there either. I can't fathom being a born-again either since I am fairly liberal politically. I also never feel the spirit at other churches like I do at my ward. (I was raised Methodist by a Baptist Mom and an Episcopalian Dad)So if this isn't true perhaps their isn't a God and If the apostle is really just a political figure then does that mean that all of the "feelings" i had over the years to guide me were false. So suddenly on Sunday I realized that I probably wasted most of my adult life (I joined the church at age 19). Since I am not a typical LDS woman I am also still single and I can't fathom how I will date outside the church at this age. I can't even begin to put into words the depth of despair this tiny little incident caused me. Obviously it was just one event in a series but it broke something deep inside my core somehow. This must be what spiritual death feels like. Cassie |
| Subject: | Welcome to the desert of the real *thunder crash and lightning* |
| Date: | Jun 17 06:11 |
| Author: | Charles |
| Mail Address: |
| (yes, the Matrix is a metaphor for everything) This is outrageous! No manners! How very rude! Do you think he has received death threats? I hope he has, after all this. I can only empathize with you. My family was converted also at great social cost, and it is part of my bitterness that we had to pay a huge price at the door, only to watch a box office flop! cassie wrote: > ...he mentioned that in the future most members of the church would spend their entire life without seeing a living apostle so I thought I would ... see him in person after his talk... Worry not, that's just strategy to get more members excited to see so-called Mormon royalty >...I patiently waited for over and hour only to be told that no one would be allowed to shake his hand let alone ask him a question. Why were the stake members not informed of this arrangement? Take it up with your local leaders (complain loudly) and watch them squirm > ...I am also positive that Christ himself actually spent time with "regular people" so why wouldn't an Apostle? I may be flamed for this, but perhaps there was NO Christ to begin with, hence the outright obnoxious behavior of some so-called ecclessiastical leaders of writing out A-list guest lists. This whole episode really shocked me to my core. My friend .... had warned me that Apostle's never talk to regular people like me but I didn't realize it until that moment. I was not aware there was such a protocal! Anyone have anything in CHI about this? I got to shake hands and exchange dull pleasantries with Spencer Kimball and Russel Nelson on separate occassions. Oh, yeah! I forgot, I too am royalty, plus a p'hood holder, thank you! >...not to ask him any one of my many questions concerning women (such as perhaps Eve is the bookend to Christ in that her sacrifice in the Garden of Eden brought us from a Spiritual existence to a Physical ...? They might have smelled the disctinct feminist scent you were wering that day. In any case, don't sweat about these narrow-minded, self-mportant geezeers "getting" your apparently well-thought out reflections. >...that he wouldn't even meet people who waited like me for an hour and that he needed to have the entire half of the building guarded rude ...So if this isn't true perhaps their isn't a God and If the apostle is really just a political figure then does that mean that all of the "feelings" i had over the years to guide me were false. Sorry to tell you this, but "yes" to both comments > So suddenly on Sunday I realized that I probably wasted most of my adult life (I joined the church at age 19). Since I am not a typical LDS woman I am also still single and I can't fathom how I will date outside the church at this age. I can't even begin to put into words the depth of despair this tiny little incident caused me. Obviously it was just one event in a series but it broke something deep inside my core somehow. This must be what spiritual death feels like. Being that you are a deep thinker, you will undoubtedly start clawing your way outta that cult. Will you do it? I hope you come to your own conclusions, Cassie, and not depend on what other people tell you. Best wishes and may you find your own path soon. |
| Subject: | Cassie - welcome to RfM — |
| Date: | Jun 17 06:31 |
| Author: | J. |
| Mail Address: |
| take some time to get to know people here and realize
everyone isn't an irrational raving lunatic, just me and a couple of
others, maybe ; ) there are many here who have suffered pain and disillusionment and may be able to share with you their own experiences to assist you. some have some very interesting things to say and people here will gladly help you with your dismay over this incident. what was it which started you on your journey with the mormon organisation? i wish you peace of mind. |
| Subject: | No! The real world is pretty good. Nothing to be depressed about. |
| Date: | Jun 17 13:29 |
| Author: | Dude |
| Mail Address: |
| Hey, love the movie, but don't overplay the
metaphor. If you think the real world outside of Mormonism is a
wasteland, you're buying into the Mormon Matrix. Real life isn't that
bad. It's the pathetic life of an overburdened Morgbot that is the
wasteland. Althought the initial shock of losing the vision of eternal godhood (or of being a polyg wife of an eternal god--can't quite figure out the appeal of the female half of the eternal equation) might be a little jarring for some, the mental shift to a "real-world perspective" just isn't that big a deal. |
| Subject: | It's tough..... you need our help. |
| Date: | Jun 17 06:22 |
| Author: | Pahoranromcumr |
| Mail Address: |
| Us ex-mo's have all been there. It's a terrible feeling when you find out the church isn't true, not unlike finding out that your parents aren't your parents. Don't worry about replacing the feelings you had in the church, for you won't be able to because you've been burnt by the church (once burnt, twice shy). Get your thoughts in order and get new friends who take you SERIOUSLY. You have been traumatised by a cult. Find your own spiritual path if you feel the need to, but realise that it will never be as intense as mormonism and you'll never feel as "at home" in a church as you once did in the mormon cult. That's the way a cult works, you're mentally dependant on them. It's not all gloom and doom at all, enjoy your freedom for the truth will set you free!! Good luck!! :-D |
| Subject: | Don't let.... |
| Date: | Jun 17 06:34 |
| Author: | One Who Knows |
| Mail Address: |
| the "wasted life" part get to you. Be happy that you have seen the truth before you spent your whole life in it. Think of all the thousands who've lived and died never seeing it. |
| Subject: | Re: Apostle's visit Security |
| Date: | Jun 17 07:07 |
| Author: | Eric K |
| Mail Address: |
| Pompous jerks seem to be the norm for many in the
hierarchy of the LDS church. They are either born that way or develop
the personalities as they rise in Mormondom. To believe that they are so
special that they do not have to condescend to talk to ordinary folks is
pure arrogance. They are not men to be followed. To Cassie and to all the new people here - Welcome to the board! Yes, it hurts to come to the realization that Mormonism is not all it claims to be. That is why we are here. Though there will likely be some pain along the way, you will soon discover life is so much better after escaping the cult. Eric |
| Subject: | I was raised Methodist, too, and here's what I did when I left mormonism. |
| Date: | Jun 17 08:00 |
| Author: | Carolsue |
| Mail Address: |
| I began attending Sunday services and developing a few acquaintances. I also went to the pastor and told her what I was going through. She, as well as several women in the congregation wrapped their arms around me and helped me to get through the worst part of the ordeal. I was never judged or pressured into joining the Methodist Church. For about two years I loosely attended some of their functions. I rarely go to Sunday service now, but still attend a once a month women's circle, in order to stay in touch socially. I sometimes donate help to their food pantry for the needy. You may want to consider the Methodists, or another liberal denomination, for the social and charitable aspects. It's helps your emotional healing to have a social network, as well as to help people in the community. One day you will wake up and feel wonderful again. |
| Subject: | Welcome to reality |
| Date: | Jun 17 08:05 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac |
| Mail Address: |
| I am also positive that Christ himself actually
spent time with "regular people" so why wouldn't an Apostle? The answer to your question is inside the question, apostles are regular people who happen to have, in the mormon world, a high power, bureaucratic position. The guy is a vice president of a fraudulent corporation whose product is promises of a better after life in exchange for all you have in this life. Welcome to RfM, Cassie. |
| Subject: | Tight Security = Importance |
| Date: | Jun 17 08:13 |
| Author: | Dumpster |
| Mail Address: |
| Since 9/11, there seems to be an unwritten rule in bureaucracies that your organization is so important it must be next on the terrorists' hit list. The Morg appears to have adopted this unwritten rule. The stated rationale for keeping 70s scattered during General Conference was security, and now we hear that a non-entity like Henry Eyring may have tighter security than George W. Bush. What's next -- moving Packer to a secure, undisclosed location? |
| Subject: | Re: Segregation & arrogance |
| Date: | Jun 17 08:50 |
| Author: | Quinlansolo |
| Mail Address: |
| Years ago when they were dedicating South Jordan
temple My wife (then) and I got a special ticket for the ceremonies. So called special invitation was well beyond hundred yards of observation point which perhaps I could accept that considering the size of the crowd but why had they cordoned us off with ropes, security waiting, I could never understand. Most of these Ga's royal attitude is beyond reprehension. As for being a single woman and being faithful to the lds church; I do feel alots of emphaty for you, for I had an ex wife who worked so diligently most of her life. Her reward was; "you can do better", "pray about it", keep your covenants" and numerous other guilt trips. |
| Subject: | it was this way long before 9-11... |
| Date: | Jun 17 09:42 |
| Author: | dimmesdale |
| Mail Address: |
| Please dont' connect the two. It's routein and has been for several years to advertise the presence of a GA. We are always told to be in the stake center 1/2 hour early. (Yes, he's probably having a nice luncheon or breakfast with the stake presidency--put on by the RS or the wives---woman's work, you know) Then he enters the building. All in attendance have been told to stand when he enters. So we stand. Then he finds his place (along with his entorage of bodyguards and other high-ups in the S.presidency and misison presidency) on the STAND (or the rameumptin). Previous to this, all the rooms on one side of the building have been blocked off and searched and cleared by his security. That is the side with the large bathroom (sigh!). When he is finished speaking, (and before the meeting is over) he is ceremoniously ushered from the building where he gets into his town car for a ride to the airport. No mingling with the crowd. After all, why would he want to try to answer questions about women or strange doctrinal policies. This has been happening for at least since the 70s when I saw Bruce R. McConkie arrive in a special stretch limo to our stake conference. I think security was increased after the threat on (was it HWHunter? or was it Hinckley) who was threatened with a gun at BYU? |
| Subject: | I guess I've just been lucky |
| Date: | Jun 17 11:19 |
| Author: | Dumpster |
| Mail Address: |
| I've only had a few brief encounters with the muckety-mucks. First, Richard Scott arrived early for a regional conference, only to have my small son bounce around in front of the stand while Scott was fiddling with the mic. Scott leaned over and made some polite remarks about my kid. Second, we experienced an airport layover with Russell Nelson. He was very tired (he had just flown in from Denmark), but he smiled and shook hands with the worshipful children whose parents trotted them over to him. We saw Nelson a few days later in Logan, Utah, walking alone on the sidewalk. Third, I saw L. Tom Perry at a missionary farewell in Logan. He came in alone before the meeting and did nothing to draw attention to himself. |
| Subject: | Cassie, I'm sorry. |
| Date: | Jun 17 10:11 |
| Author: | Fly |
| Mail Address: |
| Your story is so sad. If you want to see a real live GA, here are some places they can be "found": 1) At the weddings of blue-blood Mormon grandchildren here in SLC. They wait in line to shake the hands of the bride & groom like everybody else; 2) At the children's hospital here. They show up to give priesthood blessings (to their own relatives' kids), which don't work, like everybody else; and 3) In the Church Office Building, where the single secretaries of the GA's all have Celestial Fantasies about being plural wife #2 or #3 when they walk by. They get lost, and need directions just like the rest of us. I've helped a few out. Maxwell was sure a cutie. These guys are just big fish in little ponds. But sometimes they cash in on their "fame" for all its worth. Too bad it comes at the expense of truly sensitive people, like you. Best wishes for your recovery. |
| Subject: | The church sustains a cult of personality... |
| Date: | Jun 17 10:29 |
| Author: | Potsawatamie |
| Mail Address: |
| This was the case with Joseph Smith. Reading history indicates to me that he was quite arrogant. He claimed that no one could speak authoritatively for God but him. He cultivated the adoration of his disciples (esp. women). He had himself anointed king, etc. He ran for president when he didn't have a rat's chance in a cyanide factory. Even as a pre-prophet (i.e., money digger) he sought the adoration and attention of those around him by his claims of finding lost treasure. Brigham Young continued Smith's arrogance. And so it continues in various forms today. And don't forget the secret endowment (temple rites), including second anointings, which assure one of salvation. |
| Subject: | On a similar note, the campaign a few years to name Hinckley as "Man of the Century" |
| Date: | Jun 17 11:21 |
| Author: | daily |
| Mail Address: |
| was such a crock of arrogance. What has he accomplished except rise to the top of a small, insignificant pond? |
| Subject: | Pond? |
| Date: | Jun 17 11:27 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac |
| Mail Address: |
| your being generous. More like a stinking, stagnant puddle that is evaporating before the sun of truth. |
| Subject: | The apostles and FP (as well as other GA's) live in an ivory tower ..... |
| Date: | Jun 17 11:31 |
| Author: | Rollo Tomasi |
| Mail Address: |
| when it comes to church members. The only members they get to know at all are stake and area leaders -- everyone else they just see and perhaps shake hands on the periphery. This leaves them utterly out of touch with the rank and file (the only person they hear from are the local leaders, who fawn all over the GA's, so they get no accurate picture of what people are doing). Nowadays, the GA's stay in touch with the regular folks by surveys done by some bureaucrats in the COB. You hear apostles quote from one survey or another all the time. They are generally clueless as to what is really going on out there in the membership. Just like most other corporations. |
| Subject: | Maybe it's to avoid Hamas terrorists in the PNW. |
| Date: | Jun 17 11:35 |
| Author: | Gaucho |
| Mail Address: |
| Considering the morg's obsession with being
Israeli's and all - cue the hymn Oh Zion, dear Zion, land of the
bunkered- maybe there has been some concern that these white boys may
make for easy targets for radical acts. Maybe not. Sounds like b.s., all this security nonsense. Who knows, maybe they avoid the congregation due to shame for not having revelations. Maybe they feel guilt and want to escape the public eye. Eh, most likely not. Just old smelly men cashing in their social capital. |
| Subject: | You haven't "wasted your adult life." You've rediscovered it. |
| Date: | Jun 17 13:39 |
| Author: | Dude |
| Mail Address: |
| Welcome to the board. You'll like it here. I know the first reaction most people have when they "figure it out" is a variation on, "Do you mean I have just wasted XX years of my life and $XX,XXX dollars of tithing on a phony church?" I don't see it as wasted. We live, we learn, we grow. Think of it this way--some Mormons sacrifice most of what they have in life to the Church and never figure it out (or do it so late in life they simply have no reason to realign their life). As for the "feeling the spirit" in your ward as opposed to other churches . . . shop around. I'm sure you'll find something. There is nothing wrong with seeking to find a church in which you are comfortable worshipping God and like the people you do it with. Good luck. |
| Subject: | Elvis has left the building.... |
| Date: | Jun 17 16:31 |
| Author: | YukonCornelius |
| Mail Address: |
| But then again...Elvis actually threw towels to the
audience. At the conference they might point you to www.deseretbooks.com
to get a towel. :-) It takes a while to recover after being spiritually manipulated for so long. Hang in there. I bet that once you start going to another church that, even though it takes some time to get over that "odd" feeling, you will eventually feel the spirit. However, you will feel it on your own terms and not because someone else told you how you should feel. Does that make sense? It may take time before you can even feel like going to a church. Don't rush it to be sure. I would get to know God for a while. He will wait. You can be the LDS won't wait long. You will one day find that God speaks to you directly rather than through a man-made prophet. It's you and Him rather than you, them, and Him. You probably were taught this growing up but over the years have forgotten it due to the LDS influences. I could go on about how the LDS Church is built on a foundation of men rather than God and how the whole thing is shaky once the light starts to creep in. It's like a gush. Once you see how shaky it is it will be extremely hard to go back. Some have done it but most end up leaving soon thereafter. Research your roots again and see what you think is best for you rather than what the LDS people think is best for you. It's between you and God only. YukonCornelius |
Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org |