| Subject: | Lord's Angels coerced Joseph Smith into sex he didn't want? (references) |
| Date: | Feb 20 22:57 2003 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Of course, all TBMs accept Joseph Smith's first vision story. That's
part of what makes them TBMs in the first place! TBMs also accept that an angel named Moroni visited Smith on at least eight occasions in connection with the "coming forth" of the Book of Mormon. But if they knew, would they accept that Joseph Smith also had visitations from angels with swords? "The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction." - Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259 "When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine." - Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29 "I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him." - Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and Manuscripts See: http://www.ldshistory.net/pc/merlbyu.htm "His brother, Hyrum, said to me, "Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law." He told my sister to have no fears, and he there and then sealed my sister, Almira, to the Prophet." "Soon after this he was at my house again, where he occupied my Sister Almira's room and bed, and also asked me for my youngest sister, Esther M. I told him she was promised in marriage to my wife's brother. He said, "Well, let them marry, for it will all come right."" - Elder Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life's Review See: http://mormonlore.freeservers.com/johnson1.htm "He there and then explained to me the doctrine of plurality of wives; he said that the Lord had revealed it unto him, and commanded him to have women sealed to him as wives; that he foresaw the trouble that would follow, and sought to turn away from the commandment; that an angel from heaven then appeared before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obey the commandment." "He further said that my sister, Eliza R. Snow, had been sealed to him as his wife for time and eternity. He told me that the Lord would open the way, and I should have women sealed to me as wives. This conversation was prolonged, I think, one hour or more, in which he told me many important things." "I solemnly declare before God and holy angels, and as I hope to come forth in the morning of the resurrection, that the above statement is true." - Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, sworn affidavit. See: http://www.mormons.org.uk/celest.htm "19 year-old Zina remained conflicted until a day in October, apparently, when Joseph sent [her older brother] Dimick to her with a message: an angel with a drawn sword had stood over Smith and told him that if he did not establish polygamy, he would lose "his position and his life." Zina, faced with the responsibility for his position as prophet, and even perhaps his life, finally acquiesced." (In Sacred Loneliness, page 80-81) "An Angel of God Stood by him (Joseph Smith) with a drawn Sword and told him he should be slain & Cut off from the Earth and the kingdom of God if he did not obey that Law (of polygamy). George Q Cannon was of the same opinion, that a man must have more then one wife at a time in order to obey that Law." - Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woordruff's Journal, Vol. 8, p.235 Some questions to ponder: 1) Did Smith's free agency matter to God? 2) Why didn't the angels appear to anyone but Smith (i.e. the women)? 3) Did the women's free agency matter to Smith OR God? 4) Theoretically, wouldn't marrying ONE other woman "establish" the law of plural marriage? 5) If Smith were sent to establish a law, why didn't he do any of it in the light of day? Why didn't he lawfully petition governments, argue before the judiciary, and take care of some of the difficult footwork necessary in order to establish the--let's use the word correctly now--law? 6) How can a father's salvation be assured through a daughter's marriage to Smith, if we also hold the Articles of Faith to be true...? 7) Smith foresaw the trouble polygamy would cause, but the Lord giving the commandment didn't? |
| Subject: | Control through FEAR and RETRIBUTION! |
| Date: | Feb 20 23:11 |
| Author: | estebanito |
| SICKness. This just makes me gag, the control and fear tactics. "I'LL DIE if you don't become my 10th wife, and it will be on YOUR head!" Sick, sick, sick. |
| Subject: | And these are exactly the kinds of things... |
| Date: | Feb 21 00:11 |
| Author: | Truth Serum |
| I've been showing to my husband. He knew about the 'commandment' to
practice polygamy, but didn't know about these kinds of statements. He still believed that
polygamy was also due to there being more women in Utah than men. Absolutely sickening and revolting! Thank you so much for your highly informative posts - I always enjoy reading them. |
| Subject: | How did your husband react? n/t |
| Date: | Feb 21 11:23 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Subject: | He no longer believes... |
| Date: | Feb 21 17:22 |
| Author: | Truth Serum |
| The polygamy info was one of the MANY things I showed him or read to him. He no longer believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or that the BoM is true. |
| Subject: | If I was TBM still |
| Date: | Feb 21 16:24 |
| Author: | Bob |
| I would easily prove the church is true by showing how JS was so
obedient to the angel with the drawn sword. Even now, the questions you ask would be
irrelevant to at TBM... After all, who can question an angel with a sword. Glad I'm not there anymore. Bob. |
| Subject: | Highly flattered... |
| Date: | Feb 21 16:42 |
| Author: | Fly |
| ...that you liked my questions so much, Decon. ; ) Those were the questions I took to our bishop (a man with 30 years seminary teaching experience!). Those were the questions I asked on "ask the Mormon" websites nearly three years ago, that I asked some dear, knowledgeable friends of the faith. Those were the things that drove me to the library & kept me up reading at all hours of my rapidly fracturing life. I was struggling so hard to stay in, to keep my testimony alive. I thought that someone, anyone! could help me out with all that stuff (particularly questions 1, 3, & 4). But I was rebuffed by every Mormon I turned to for help. Told I needed immediate blessings to chase away the devil, once. *sigh* And I was doing everything right! Reading, fasting, praying, tithing, teaching my lessons, singing, hoping... I mean come ON, "god told me to" was what every horny RM at BYU told me when he wanted a free ride. No thanks. |
| Subject: | The Mormon God gets off watching grown men with 14 year olds (R rated)... |
| Date: | Feb 21 17:46 |
| Author: | John |
| How else do explain God FORCING Joseph to screw Fanny. "Dammit
Joseph, take that hot, tight assed little 14 year old and screw her good. " (God watching Joseph and Fanny) "Yeah.....Oh Yeah......There's the money shot." |
| Subject: | Question #2 |
| Date: | Feb 21 17:35 |
| Author: | John Corrill |
| Thanks for the info. Pretty shocking stuff. As far as question #2 goes, Mary Lightner did say that she saw an angel. Many of the other wives were encouraged by Joseph to get their own revelation on the subject. When Lucy Walker told Joseph that she wanted her own witness, he told her that she would have the sweetest peace she had ever known (or something similar to that). He also told her she only had until the next morning to get her answer, and then the door to salvation would be shut to her forever. Guess what? After an agonizing night of prayer, she got her answer. Joe suceeeded in coercing another victim into his polygamy. I think there were many other women who said they had received their own testimony of "the principle". I'm recalling this from my reading of "ISL". |
| Subject: | Lightner saw the angel? |
| Date: | Feb 21 17:39 |
| Author: | Fly |
| I don't remember that. Guess it's time for me to either buy the book or check it out again! |
| Subject: | OUT COMES THE SWORD! |
| Date: | Feb 21 17:47 |
| Author: | xyxy |
| Come on Decon...God allows for free agency when it suits him but when his subjects cross him in important stuff like polygamy he gets really pissed...then OUT COMES THE SWORD! You know, the old free agency card kept people in the dark for some 1800 years. Yes, those wicked people CHOSE to kill christ and the prophets (allowed by god because of free agency) which in turn led to the horrors of the Dark Ages(again allowed by god) which in turn was followed by the Enlightenment where people CHOSE to be in a position to receive the glorious restoration of the gospel. But, don't piss off god and use your free agency when it comes to polygamy...OUT COMES THE SWORD! |
| Subject: | Excellent, excellent post. Thank you for sharing. |
| Date: | Feb 21 18:21 |
| Author: | Patty |
| I knew there had been an angel with a sword, but didn't connect it with the polygamy commandment. Brother! |
| Subject: | The sword only showed up about sex |
| Date: | Feb 21 22:03 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| As far as I know, the angel only appeared and threatened Smith when
he didn't supposedly resisted secretly marrying other men's wives. Pretty strange,
considering Smith told the same story to so many different women. What a shame the angel with the sword didn't come and straighten Smith out on these other occasions: - No angel tried to stop him ordaining blacks to the priesthood - No angel stopped him from writing contradictory versions of the First Vision story - No angel coerced him into not ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo expositor press - No angel tried to stop him from ordering the Danites to kill Governor Boggs - No angel corrected him for repeatedly saying that Native Americans are lamanites. - No angel warned him to stop having sex with his adopted daughters - No angel prevented Smith from claiming to know how to translate Egyptian - No angel came to tell him what happened to the lost 116 pages Nope. Angels were complete no-shows, except for when Smith supposedly didn't want to seduce other men's wives, and then WALA, A MIRACLE! The Lord sends his angel to force Smith into secret adultery! How do TBMs explain it? |
| Subject: | Re: The sword only showed up about sex |
| Date: | Feb 21 22:24 |
| Author: | Randy J. |
| >As far as I know, the angel only appeared and threatened
Smith when he supposedly resisted secretly marrying other men's wives. Pretty strange,
considering Smith told the same story to do many different women. The problem with the believability of that story is that Smith didn't start spinning his "angel with drawn sword threatened me" until about 1840, in Nauvoo; but Smith had already been suspected of, or actually been involved in extra-marital relationships with Eliza Winters in 1831, Nancy Marinda Johnson in 1832, Fanny Alger from 1833-36, and the already-married Lucinda Morgan Harris in 1838. Thus, the apologists' claim that Smith was 'reluctant' to enter 'plural marriage' with already-married women, and had to be threatened by an angel to do so, does not comport with the known facts. On top of that---if it was only necessary, in 'the Lord's' program, for Smith to restore 'plural marriage' as part of the 'restoration of all things,' then it shouldn't have been necessary for Smith to actually consummate his 'plural marriages.' The fact that Smith eagerly engaged in sexual relations with the women--and even set up a sham civil marriage between Joseph Kingsbury and Sarah Whitney to cover up Smith's 'plural marriage' to himself (in case she became pregnant), shows that sex was Smith's motivation. Another example which demonstrates that was Smith's order to Mary Lightner to keep her relationship with him secret from her legal husband Adam. Why would he want their relationship kept secret unless it involved illicit relations? And then there was Prescindia Huntington Buell, who remarked that she didn't know if her child was fathered by 'her husband or the prophet.' Why would 'the Lord', or his angel, allow Smith to 'plural marry' women who were already married, and have sex with them? Especially when the 'revelation on celestial marriage' dictated that Smith's 'plural wives' should be 'virgins'? The very idea forces one to believe that 'the Lord' contradicted his previous commandment to 'obey the laws of the land,' and that he intentionally made adulterers out of both Smith and the married women whom he had sex with. Those Mormon apologists who still believe the 'angel with drawn sword' line are fooling themselves. |
| Subject: | Of course she saw an angel! (reference) |
| Date: | Feb 21 21:50 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| From Lightner's testimony: "Joseph came up the next Sabbath. He said, "Have you had a witness yet?" "No." "Well," said he, "the angel expressly told me you should have." Said I, "I have not had a witness, but I have seen something I have never seen before. I saw an angel and I was frightened almost to death. I did not speak." He studied a while and put his elbows on his knees and his face in his hands. He looked up and said, "How could you have been such a coward?" Said I, "I was weak." "Did you think to say, 'Father, help me?'" "No." "Well, if you had just said that, your mouth would have been opened for that was an angel of the living God. He came to you with more knowledge, intelligence, and light than I have ever dared to reveal." I said, "If that was an angel of light, why did he not speak to me?" "You covered your face and for this reason the angel was insulted." Said I, "Will it ever come again?" He thought a moment and then said, "No, not the same one, but if you are faithful you shall see greater things than that." And then he (Joseph Smith) gave me three signs of what would take place in my own family, although my husband was far away from me at the time. Every work came true. I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing, and Heber C. Kimball the blessing. I know he (Joseph Smith) had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." - See: http://www.ldshistory.net/pc/merlbyu.htm So yeah, she says she saw an angel, but she said it was not a sign that she should marry Smith, but then Smith interpreted it for her as a sign. This must have been pretty easy, since her husband was "far away" at the time. Read through her testimony and try imagining what their conversation was really like. It's major headgames. Smith and Brigham Young were scamming on these women, plain and simple. No self-respected Mormon can deny what was going on. The Nazi TBMs will never budge, but this Lightner's testimony should be disturbing to your average Mormon. |
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