| Subject: | Behold the Great and Abominable Church (references) |
| Date: | Nov 09 20:23 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Here are some references to Mormon leaders and scriptures that refer
to the "Great and Abominable Church" and "Great Whore of All the
Earth" What would you think of Catholicism if you believed this stuff? "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! - The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255 "The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85 1 Nephi 13:5-6: And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it. 1 Nephi 13:8: And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. 1 Nephi 13:26: And after they [the prophecies and testimonies of the Bible] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. 1 Nephi 13:28: Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [the Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 13:34: ...the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb [Bible] which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb.." 1 Nephi 14:3: And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children,, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, said the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end. 1 Nephi 14:9: And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. 1 Nephi 14:10-11: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. 1 Nephi 14:12: And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters [oceans]; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. 1 Nephi 14:13: And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 14:15-16: And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth. And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things— 1 Nephi 14:17: And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel. 1 Nephi 22:13: And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood. 1 Nephi 22:14: And every nation which shall war against thee, O house of Israel, shall be turned one against another, and they shall fall into the pit which they digged to ensnare the people of the Lord. And all that fight against Zion shall be destroyed, and that great whore, who hath perverted the right ways of the Lord, yea, that great and abominable church, shall tumble to the dust and great shall be the fall of it. 2 Nephi 6:12: And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written things. 2 Nephi 10:16: Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God. 2 Nephi 28:18: But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof. Doctrine and Covenants 29:21: And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign. Doctrine and Covenants 88:94: And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it. "A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names." "Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions." "But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left." - Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41 "How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations." She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346 "Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"—"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms." - Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109 |
| Subject: | HOLY FREAKIN' WOW BATMAN!! |
| Date: | Nov 09 21:09 |
| Author: | TLC |
| Mail Address: |
| I think you've got 'em by the cojones this time. Let 'em try and weasel out of this one by saying, "I don't know that we teach that." I've said it before and I'll say it again Decon - you're a force of nature. Did Joseph Smith have a thing for whores or what? I'll be he sprouted wood everytime he said the word whore, which is probably why it comes up so often in the BoM. "Whores Oliver, whores. (Oh yeh, oh yeh) I tell you these other churches are nothing but whores. (Ohhhhhhh) I looked out onto the waters Oliver and all I saw were whores (Oh god, aaaah) whores here (yehhh) and whores there (fuuuuuuu....) whores everywhere man.(Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh - quick Oliver, hand me a towel.) THE GREAT AND ABOMINABLE WHORE OF THE EARTH OLIVER!!!!!!!!! (uhhhhhhhhyehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...)" "Oliver - you got a smoke man?" |
| Subject: | Here's some more favorites for missionaries to bash Catholics... |
| Date: | Nov 09 22:58 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Mail Address: |
| "It was the apostate Catholics that first originated the
idea and by them the fatal delusion has been handed down from generation to generation;
and all the children that she has brought forth, or that have left her communion, have,
more or less, imbibed the same great features of the apostasy. Well might the Revelator
John, speaking by the spirit of prophecy, call her "the Mother of Harlots and
abominations of the earth!" It is her true name, for all the "harlots"
which she has brought forth have walked in the footsteps of their "Mother"
in declaring against new revelation, and in pretending that ancient revelation is a
sufficient rule of faith. It is to be expected that as is the Mother, so will be her
Harlot daughters. ...In the meantime, another harlot daughter of the Catholics--the
Lutherans..." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.40 "The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in allWhat prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.' - Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811 "Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God. - Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939 Is there any doubt that these church leaders understood the meaning of the "great and abominable church" mentioned in the Book of Mormon? Even today, Mormon missionaries serving in Catholic-dominated countries know what the Book of Mormon is saying. How can anyone be surprised that Mormon missionaries don't respect other religions? |
| Subject: | Re: Here's some more favorites for missionaries to bash Catholics... |
| Date: | Nov 10 17:38 |
| Author: | Mark Patterson |
| Mail Address: |
| They speak the truth. Why do you trifle with reality? |
| Subject: | Spoken like a true believer... |
| Date: | Nov 10 22:51 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Mail Address: |
| They speak the truth. Why do you trifle with reality? Now you're someone I can respect. At least you aren't trying to make excuses and will stand by what Mormons have taught for generations. I "trifle" with Mormon reality because it was once my reality. I spent two years in Spain as a representative of the Mormon Church. My Mormon "reality" taught me that the Catholic Church was the Whore of All the Earth. I believed it. My companions believed it. The Mission President believed it. The active Mormon members in Spain believed it. The consuquences of such a belief leads to all kinds of unhealthy things. It makes you see Catholics in a negative light. It makes you feel righteously justified in attacking others and disrepecting their faith. It also leads to great pride and arrogance. It's the same shit-in-the-head that has people yelling at Mormons on the Main Street Plaza and calling them harlots. They are just as convinced of "reality" as you are. Except theirs has you playing the side of Satan and them playing the side of the "righteous." You may not agree with them, but you must be able to understand them, because the roots of that poison are in Mormonism too. |
| Subject: | when I have questioned TBMs about even just a few of these quotes.... |
| Date: | Nov 10 10:57 |
| Author: | Pt Loma |
| ....they say, "it's not referring to any church in
particular...we don't make fun of other religions"* Bullshit, but that's what they say. When I further inquire with "well, what OTHER churches were in existence in BOM times?", they say they're not taught which church Nephi refers to. I'm not Catholic, and I'm never-Mo, and I'm sure today's CES manuals are vague, but wasn't it taught earlier (like to people now in their 40s-50s when they were children) that "the great and abominable church" was the Catholic Church? *what ALWAYS works is asking them, since "they don't mock other faiths", why a Protestant minister was depicted as a minister of Satan in the endowment until 1990? |
| Subject: | Protestant Minister's role in temple endowment revealed |
| Date: | Nov 10 11:20 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| The pre-1990 temple endowment did in fact include a Protestant
Minister wearing a collar as Lucifer's henchman. It was no small role. The Minisiter had
17 speaking parts and made it very clear that he was part of the Great and Abominable
Church of the Devil. Here's the part of the endowment that included the Minister: ADAM: I am looking for messengers. LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? I will have preachers here presently. (Lucifer turns his head as a PROTESTANT minister approaches.) LUCIFER: Good Morning sir! PROTESTANT MINISTER: Good morning! (The preacher turns and looks into the camera.) PROTESTANT MINISTER: A fine congregation! LUCIFER: Yes, they are a very good people. They are concerned about religion. Are you a preacher? PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am. LUCIFER: Have you been to college and received training for the ministry? PROTESTANT MINISTER: Certainly! A man cannot preach unless has been trained for the ministry. LUCIFER: Do you preach the orthodox religion? PROTESTANT MINISTER: Yes, that is what I preach. LUCIFER: If you will preach your orthodox religion to these people, and convert them, I will pay you well. PROTESTANT MINISTER: I will do my best. (Lucifer guides the preacher to Adam and Eve, who stand nearby.) LUCIFER: Here is a man who desires religion. He is very much exercised, and seems to be sincere. (As Lucifer presents the preacher to Adam and Eve he steps back and observes the ensuing conversation. The preacher is made to sound sincere, although misguided and credulous. Adam appears humble, faithful and immovable in his determination to serve God. He is not swayed by the preacher, and is astounded by the doctrines espoused by the preacher.) PROTESTANT MINISTER: I understand that you are inquiring after religion. ADAM: I was calling upon Father. PROTESTANT MINISTER: I am glad to know that you were calling upon Father. Do you believe in a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who sits on the top of a topless throne; whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere; who fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; who is surrounded by myriads of beings who have been saved by grace, not for any act of theirs, but by His good pleasure. Do you believe in such a great Being? ADAM: I do not. I cannot comprehend such a being. PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is the beauty of it. Perhaps you do not believe in a devil, and in that great hell, the bottomless pit, where there is a lake of fire and brimstone into which the wicked are cast, and where they are continually burning, but none never consumed? ADAM: I do not believe in any such place. PROTESTANT MINISTER: My dear friend, I am sorry for you. LUCIFER: I am sorry, very very sorry! What is it you want? ADAM: I am looking for messengers from my Father. (The scene changes to a view of the Celestial Kingdom, where Elohim reigns from a white throne afront tall white pillars. He is radiant as before, and his voice resonates as he speaks with Jehovah, who stands before him. He commands Jehova to send down Peter, James and John) PETER: Good morning. LUCIFER: Good morning gentlemen. PETER: What are you doing here? LUCIFER: Teaching religion. PETER: What religion do you teach? LUCIFER: We teach a religion made of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. PETER: How is your religion received by this community? LUCIFER: Very well--excepting this man. He does not seem to believe anything we preach. (Peter, James and John approach Adam and Eve.) PETER: Good morning. What do you think of the preaching of these gentlemen? ADAM: I cannot comprehend it. PETER: Can you give us some idea concerning it? ADAM: They preach of a God who is without body, parts, or passions; who is so large that he fills the universe, and yet is so small that he can dwell in your heart; and of a hell, without a bottom, where the wicked are continually burned but are never consumed. To me, it is a mass of confusion. PETER: We do not wonder that you cannot comprehend such doctrine. Have you any tokens or signs? (Lucifer steps up to the side of Peter and interjects his query.) LUCIFER: Do you have any money? PETER: We have sufficient for our needs. LUCIFER: You can buy anything in this world for money. PETER: Do you sell your tokens or signs for money? You have them, I presume. ADAM: I have them, but I do not sell them for money. I hold them sacred. I am looking for the further light and knowledge Father promised to send me. PETER: That is right. We commend you for your integrity. Good day. We shall probably visit you again. (Peter, James and John exit; Lucifer stares into the camera.) LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest, or make me afraid. PROTESTANT MINISTER: Shall we ever have any apostles or prophets? LUCIFER: No. However, there may be some who will profess revelation or apostleship. If so, just test them by asking that they perform a great miracle, such as cutting off an arm or some other member of the body, and restoring it, so that the people may know that they have come with power. (The scene changes to the Celestial Kingdom. Peter, James, and John approach Jehovah with their report.) PETER: Jehovah, we have visited the man Adam in the Telestial World as thou didst command us. We found Satan there, with his ministers, preaching all manner of false doctrine, and striving to lead the posterity of Adam astray. But Adam has been true and faithful to the token and sign given him in the Garden of Eden, and is waiting for the further light and knowledge you promised to send him. This is our report. ..... (The scene changes again to the lone and dreary world. The three Apostles boldly approach Lucifer.) PETER: I am Peter. JAMES: I am James. JOHN: I am John. LUCIFER: Yes, I thought I knew you. (He turns to his Preacher.) Do you know who these men are? They claim to be apostles. Try them! (The Preacher approaches Peter.) PROTESTANT MINISTER: Do you profess to be an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ? PETER: We do. PROTESTANT MINISTER: This man told me that we should never have any revelation or apostles, but if any should come professing to be apostles, I was to ask them to cut off an arm or some other member of the body and the restore it, so that the people might know that they came with power. PETER: We do not satisfy men's curiosity in that manner. It is a wicked and an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign. Do you know who that man is? He is Satan! PROTESTANT MINISTER: What? The Devil? PETER: That is one of his names. PROTESTANT MINISTER: He is quite a different person from what he told me the devil is. He said the devil has claws like a bear's on his hands, horns on his head, and a cloven foot, and that when he speaks he has the roar of a lion! PETER: He has said this to deceive you, and I would advise you to get out of his employ. PROTESTANT MINISTER: Your advise is good; but, if I leave his employ, what will become of me? PETER: We will preach the gospel unto you, with the rest of Adam's posterity. PROTESTANT MINISTER: That is good. (He turns to Lucifer) I would like to have a settlement. I want you to pay me for preaching. LUCIFER: I am ready to keep my word and fulfill my part of the agreement. I promised to pay you if you would convert these people, and they have nearly converted you! You can get out of my kingdom, I want no such men in it! (As the preacher turns sadly and leaves Lucifer approaches Peter) Now, what are you going to do? PETER: We will dismiss you without further argument. |
| Subject: | I am in my early 30s |
| Date: | Nov 10 11:40 |
| Author: | I am someone |
| and grew up in the east. It was definately taught to my generation here that the "great whore" was the catholic church and also any christian non-mormon church. This was taught us in seminary and later in institute. |
| Subject: | I'm in my 20s |
| Date: | Nov 10 12:26 |
| Author: | brefots |
| and I learned this from my parents when I was a kid, although I'm confident that they would deny it now if confronted. This hypocrisy is so typical the mormon mindset. |
| Subject: | Do you mean these scriptural gems? |
| Date: | Nov 10 13:16 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| I think these are what you are referring too: Joseph Smith History 1:18-20: "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join." "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..." D&C 1:30-31 "And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually— For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;" D&C 38:10-11: "Verily I say unto you, ye are clean, but not all; and there is none else with whom I am well pleased; For all flesh is corrupted before me; and the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, among the children of men, in the presence of all the hosts of heaven—" There are more condemnations by Mormon leaders against other churches than I could possibly post here. But here's a web page with some of them: http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/morm&churches.htm |
| Subject: | McConkie's Mormon Doctrine varies... |
| Date: | Nov 10 11:20 |
| Author: | can't believe |
| I understand that the first edition of McConkie's Mormon Doctrine
defined the Catholic Church (and I guess the rest of Christendom) as the Great and
Abominable Church, but that he had to change later editions so that it did not read this
way. Can anyone post the differences between the two editions? Are there any web discussions of this issue? |
| Subject: | Re: Behold the Great and Abominable Church (references) |
| Date: | Nov 10 18:32 |
| Author: | Thinker |
| The Great and Abominable Church is not a specific church. Please
read 1 Nephi 14:9. How can it be a specific church when it says "whoso belongeth not
the the church of God belongeth to that great church..."? Does everyone not in the
"true church" belong to a specific church? The "church of the devil"
is many organisations, beliefs, etc, and is called "Babylon the Great". It is
not the Catholic Church or any other church per se. Many of the commentators on this subject did not understand that: (i)"When Nephi speaks typologically rather than historically, he identifies all the enemies of the Saints with the church of the devil (1 Ne. 14:9-10; 2 Ne. 10:16). They are those from all nations and all time periods who desire "to get gain, and…power over the flesh, and…to become popular in the eyes of the world,…who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity" (1 Ne. 22:23). Other scriptural terms related to the great and abominable church include "Babylon" and the "great harlot" (Rev. 17:5; 1 Ne. 22:13; D&C 1:16)."(/i) http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/interfaith/gachurch.htm |
| Subject: | Take a closer look... |
| Date: | Nov 10 19:34 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| The Book of Mormon uses different terms for different things: The Great and Abominable Church The Whore of All the Earth Baylon The Great The Harlot The Church of the Devil There are some verses in the Book of Mormon that talk in broad terms and others that speak of a specific church. You said "The "church of the devil" is many organisations, beliefs, etc, and is called "Babylon the Great". It is not the Catholic Church or any other church per se." And I totally agree with that! Baylon the Great and The Church of the Devil are broad terms to mean "not of the church of God." That's clearly what 1 Nephi 14:9 is saying. But look at the other scriptures and you'll see they are referring to a SPECIFIC church: - In the Book of Mormon, there are many references to "a church which is most abominable above all other churches." - This church had a history of an Inquisition similar to the Roman Catholic Church in that it "slayeth the Saints of God, yea and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron and bringeth them down into captivity" (1 Ne. 13:5). - The people involved with this depraved organization wore finery similar to priestly vestments; their church structures were ornate; and women in their church, like nineteenth-century Catholic nuns, were accused of sexual misconduct. Smith's Nephi reported in the Book of Mormon that he "saw gold, silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots" (1 Ne. 13). - Smith went on to assert that this abominable church "whose foundation is the Devil" and who is "the whore of all the earth" would pervert the scriptures entrusted to people by God, i.e. the Bible. - A book was to come from the Jews which would contain the gospel. The writer claimed this book (The Bible) eventually would fall into the "hands of the Great and abominable church" after which are "many plain and precious things taken away from the Book" (1 Ne. 13:26-29). - The Book of Mormon also predicted the sale of indulgences. "Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say, come unto me and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins" (Morm. 8:32) These are SPECIFIC references to the Catholic Church. I've posted literally dozens of references from early church leaders that specifically identify the Catholic church as the "whore" and the "abominable church" in reference to these Book of Mormon references. So the Book of Mormon talks in specific terms about the Catholic Church (The whore and the abominable church) and in broad terms (Great Babylon and the Church of the Devil). For the first hundred years of Mormonism, this was very clear. Why do today's Mormons try to distance themselves from these basic teachings on the great apostacy? |
| Subject: | Re: Take an even closer look... |
| Date: | Nov 10 20:50 |
| Author: | Thinker |
| The Catholic Church was not responsible for the initial
"corruption" of the scriptures. The church referred to "made war with the saints of God", meaning the "true church", which was not on the earth at the time of the Inquisition. The world was in apostasy, remember? Those "making war with the Saints of God" now are from many different backgrounds. One question: Why are there no specific quotations from Joseph Smith identifying the Catholic Church as the church of the devil? Your quotations are also limited to the Pratt brothers mainly. McConkie said similar but was wrong and had his assumptions withdrawn, just as he was wrong about blacks and the PH. http://www.cometozarahemla.org/sawourday/abominable.html#What-Who |
| Subject: | Again, why the backsliding? |
| Date: | Nov 10 22:41 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| We know where Joseph Smith stood on all other churches other than
the one he founded: JS History 1:19-20 "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..." D&C 1:30-31 "And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually— For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;" As far as Joseph Smith was concerned, ALL other churches were of the devil. We've already agreed that many of the references in the Book of Mormon are broad statements against every other church but the one founded by Joseph Smith in 1830. They have the blanket label "Great Babylon" and "The Church of the Devil." But again, the Book of Mormon clearly mentions one in specific, which it says is "most abominable above all OTHER churches." Then it describes specific attributes of that OTHER church that is worse than ALL OTHER churches. But we've been over this already and apparently you are relying on apoligist explanations rather than a plain reading of the Book of Mormon itself. I don't understand why direct and official quotes from founding church leaders like the Prophet Brigham Young, Prophet John Taylor, Apostle Orson Pratt, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie and Apostle Parley P. Pratt would be rejected. Weren't these inspired leaders teaching the gospel as they understood it by the Spirit? Since when were the "Pratt Brothers" not considered great authorities and defenders of Mormon doctrine? I'm suprised that Mormons are backsliding so much on this. Has the church really fallen that low into mainstreaming since my Seminary days in the 1980's when this was openly taught? Face it, the Book of Mormon in some instances is directly referring to the Catholic Church as the "Whore of all the Earth." As a Mormon, what's the big deal? Why are Mormons nowdays so afraid to take ownership of this plain doctrine that early church leaders clearly understood and proudly taught? Besides, even you admit that the BoM teaches that ALL OTHER churches other than the LDS Church are "the church of the devil." This would include the Catholic Church as well, so either way, Mormon Doctrine teaches the Catholic church is evil and at least part of the whore of all the earth. Either way, methinks ye protesteth too much. |
| Subject: | Re: Again, why the backsliding? |
| Date: | Nov 10 23:52 |
| Author: | Thinker. |
| As far as Joseph Smith was concerned, ALL other churches were of
the devil. Does the devil have "a form of godliness"? It wouldn't matter if 90 percent of GAs agreed on something, if it's not canonized and not officially revelation it is NOT doctrine. Was Adam God ever canonized? Where is that today? |
| Subject: | Something else the LDS screws up...... |
| Date: | Nov 11 00:03 |
| Author: | One Who Knows |
| It's not official(they claim) until it is voted on and approved by
the members(forgetting they didn't get a chance to do so with the changes in the temple
cermony in 1990). Compare this to the Old Testement. Do you think that there was a vote
when the prophets decreed something? Moses comes down from Mt. Sinai with the Ten Commandments, do you think the first thing he said was "All in favor say 'I', all oppose...." |
| Subject: | So the Great Apostacy exists in the Mormon Church too? |
| Date: | Nov 11 01:08 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| Why didn't you answer any of my questions? It wouldn't matter if 90 percent of GAs agreed on something, if it's not canonized and not officially revelation it is NOT doctrine. Was Adam God ever canonized? Where is that today? Do you realize what you are saying? Do you mean Brigham Young taught false doctrine from the church pulpit? Why didn't God strike him dead, or at least tell him later to recant? Mormons only have two sources of inspiration available - God or Satan. If not inspired by God, you're saying Brigham Young was inspired by the Devil without even knowing it at the time or later. You realize you're talking about the same prophet who made polygamy public doctrine and wrote the temple endowment ceremonies. Maybe they are suspect too? If 90 percent of the Mormon General Authorities can agree on something, teach it, and it not be doctrine, then the Mormon Church is no better than any other church. You're describing apostacy here! By your standards, Mormons cannot trust anything said in any church meeting that is not expressly given by the First Presidency or quoted directly from scripture (without any interpretation whatsoever). Everything but "canonized" or "officially revealed" teaching could be false doctrine. Doesn't that also mean local leader's teachings and guidance should not be trusted? If Mormons cannot stand by their past leaders and official publications, then they are admitting that a great apostacy has been in their church from the beginning. That's a pretty pathetic "restoration" if you ask me. |
| Subject: | It seems as if there's a serious question about what is actually canonized as belief |
| Date: | Nov 11 00:04 |
| Author: | Shakjula |
| According to Gordon B. Hinckley, he isn't sure whether the Church ever taught that God was once a man, and we may become God. |
| Subject: | Hinckley admitted it was taught... (Reference) |
| Date: | Nov 11 15:32 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| This is from the January New Yorker article on the church, which
included an interview with the Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley. Excerpt from the article: But Hinckley did not seem interested in discussing matters of theology. When I asked him to characterize God's connubial relationship, he replied, "We don't speculate on that a lot. Brigham Young said if you went to Heaven and saw God it would be Adam and Eve. I don't know what he meant by that." Pointing to a grim-faced portrait of the Lion of the Lord, as Young was called, he said, "There he is, right there. I'm not going to worry about what he said about those things." I asked whether Mormon theology was a form of polytheism. "I don't have the remotest idea what you mean," he said impatiently. "More than one god." "Yes, but that's a very loose term," he replied. "We believe in eternal progression." By that he meant that human beings can evolve toward godhood by following the Mormon path. "You want to be a reporter always?" he said. "You want to be a scrub forever, through all eternity? We believe that life, eternal life, is real, that it's purposeful, that it has meaning, that it can be realized. I wouldn't describe us as polytheistic." ------ So yes, Hinckley knows damn well what Brigham Young taught. Hinckley admits it, he just says he "doesn't know what he meant by that." What a prophet! You can read the whole article here: http://www.newyorker.com/PRINTABLE/?fact/020121fa_FACT1 |
| Subject: | The official publication of the church, like the Ensign today, except.. |
| Date: | Nov 11 16:59 |
| Author: | Deconstructor |
| The Seer was the official publication of the church. It was the same
thing as the Ensign is today, except the articles in The Seer were all written by
Apostles. It was THE authority publication of the church at the time. I find it very hard to believe that Mormons of the time thought The Seer was anything but the Lord's truth. To dennounce it now as some false-doctrine spreader is to speak evil of the Lord's annointed who wrote and published it. Show us where the First Presidency has dennounced the Prophet John Taylor (who was the editor of The Seer) as a false prophet. Show me where "the Pratt Brothers" have been declared by the First Presidency as apostates. Until such evidence is demonstrated, we must assume the Lord knew what he was doing when he called these men as Mormon leaders and their official declarations for the church are still Mormon doctrine. |
| Subject: | Ah, the changing world of Mormonism .... |
| Date: | Nov 11 16:17 |
| Author: | Danite |
| A few years back, the church donated to the restoration of the Cathedral of the Madeleine in SLC. Supporting the "whore of all the earth"? McConkie and Orson Pratt were no doubt rolling in their graves. A little Hinckster PR ploy, no doubt. |
| Subject: | TBMs still believe in the Great and Abominable Church |
| Date: | Nov 11 16:51 |
| Author: | John |
| During my sales meeting (lesson on being a member missionary) in Sunday School yesterday the teacher mentioned the Great and Abominable Church. He wrote on the board all of the signs of the second coming: moon turns blood red, etc. One of the things he had listed was 'Great and Abominable Church will Fall.' He said it out loud while pointing to it on the board. I am still upset at myself for not raising my hand and asking, 'Which church is the Great and Abominable Church.' I guess I was too shocked to say anything in class. I looked around and nobody even flinched when he said it. |