| Subject: | Who decides the tithing question in a "mixed" marriage? |
| Date: | Oct 28 02:37 2002 |
| Author: | mamacapel |
| Okay, I really need some input from any veterans of TBM
husband/apostate wife marriages, (or just anyone with insight!) I haven't posted for a few months, but I lurk here and read almost everything (I love this board!!) It has been a HUGE support to me as I've waved farewell to Mormonism over the last few months. I couldn't have done it without all of you!! Anyway, my respectful, loving TBM husband asked me last week if I was still MAILING the tithing checks, since I don't attend church. Uhhhhh....no. I really haven't been intentionally deceiving him, since we never really talked about it specifically, and I guess I've been kinda using the military's "don't ask-don't tell" policy. And to be perfectly honest, I think he's had to have at least a sub-conscious question or two about why suddenly there was money to buy the kids some school clothes, have a more-than-usual expensive birthday party for our daughter, etc. Okay, yes, he does earn the money, and theoretically it is his final decision whether to pay 10% to the corporation. HOWEVER, we've always considered it OUR money in the past, even though he works for it, and we've always decided together on expensive/important financial decisions. So how come his FEAR to NOT pay tithing is more valid than my OUTRAGE at thinking God really needs our $500 a month more than our family of 14, including seven children we've adopted from Africa??? I'm trying to feed everyone on $200 a week, and there's NOTHING left over for ANYTHING extra, i.e. school activities, vacations, savings, etc. What's so Christ-like about that??? My husband assures me it's not fear, it's faith, and that we'll be "blessed." Excuse my cynicism, but what did our tithing/fast offerings/supporting two ward missionaries "get us" three years ago when we were BOTH faithful, hard-working, believing TBMS, and our life fell apart financially when the company my husband had worked for 15 years went bankrupt, owing him $80,000 in commissions, and we ended up spending our 401K money to live on while we were unemployed for six months, and taking a job that paid less than half our previous income??? I'm sorry, it IS fear, NOT faith, and it's actually a very self-serving reason for being "charitable," so that you won't "miss out" on the "blessings" due you! As far as I'm concerned, God is MUCH happier about our adopting seven children from Africa, than any amount of tithing checks we could ever write to the church!! And he certainly would expect us to continue to feed, clothe and educate them to the best of our ability. My husband asked me if we were wealthy, would I care if we paid tithing? And I still would, because it's the principle. I'm not forking over 25 cents to a fraud-based organization - period. So we're at an impasse. What do you guys think?? (PS - I assured him that I read the Church Handbook online, and yes, he can still keep his temple recommend even if his apostate spouse refuses to pay tithing - hey, I did my homework!:) He was not amused.) |
| Subject: | Tell your TBM spouse that God has revealed to you that there is a very deserving family |
| Date: | Oct 28 02:52 |
| Author: | Shake Me |
| who needs that money--your family! You need it more than the
Morporation and making moral decisions about how the money is used is an opportunity for
your growth and development. If you surrender that discretion to the Businessmen apostles
in SLC, who knows what nonsense they'll spend it on. Of course, there's no point in asking what the official Mormon church position is. They will always come down on the side of sending money to the Morporation. Ask your husband why he thinks that God wants the Church corporation to have 10% of his income. If he says "because it's a commandment", ask him how he knows it's a commandment. Then he'll cite some Mormon interpretations of scriptures and you can point out that when it's all boiled down, he has been told by the leaders of the Mormon corporation that god wants him to send his hard earned money to the Mormon corporation, instead of using his own intelligence to decide what the best uses for the money are. (The legal terms "hearsay" and "conflict of interest" are relevant here.) Would he listen to anyone else who told him that god wanted him to send his money to them? If so, give me your husband's telephone number. Just kidding! ;o) It's not really a question of God blessing or cursing you for not paying tithing. It's a question of whether God really wants you to pay money to the Morporation. I have no reason to believe that there is any god in the universe that wants you to pay money to the Morporation and I have a lot of valid reasons for not believing the self-serving claims of the Morporation leaders. It's not likely to work, but maybe you can get him questioning why he has such a blind faith in an organization that is not even willing to disclose to loyal tithepayers an itemized accounting of the Church corporation's use of tithing funds. |
| Subject: | When we were a part-Mo family... |
| Date: | Oct 28 03:03 |
| Author: | Exmaria |
| I insisted my spousal unit only pay his 10 percent on his half of
our combined income (which most of the time only came from his job). Thus tithing for the
family to the LDS church totalled 5 percent. The reason for this is that you need to be able to choose to tithe or not tithe, yourself. If I had chosen to join the LDS church, I wanted to be able to choose to tithe, as well, as a reflection of my committing to that church. And as long as I wasn't a member, I reserved the tithing on my half of our total income to tithe or not tithe as I saw fit, to whatever organization or cause that I saw as "worthy" of that tithing to the extent that I felt I was personally fulfilling the PURPOSE of tithing. You might also find this description of tithing helpful... http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=deut+14:22-29 The LDS church's dictates about tithing are not the only valid views on the subject. |
| Subject: | Re: Tell your TBM spouse that God has revealed to you that there is a very deserving family |
| Date: | Oct 28 03:07 |
| Author: | mamacapel |
| You know, I did ask him your question, and he says it's a
commandment in the Bible to tithe (pay 10%), and that those who "are not tithed will
be burned at his coming." I haven't mentioned to him yet that I'm questioning EVERYTHING about religion now, including the Bible, so I guess this would be a good opportunity to do that, huh? It's a little scary, because his support in my leaving the church has been based in a large part on the fact that I'm still a Christian and still attend "A" church, if not "The" church! Do Christian denominations expect and teach the concept of a full 10% tithe? |
| Subject: | He's talking about the scriptures in Malachi (Old Testament). |
| Date: | Oct 28 03:24 |
| Author: | Shake Me |
| Does he realize that the Mormon leadership has twisted these words
in a self-serving way that makes Mormons think that god is commanding them to give money
to the Mormon church corporation? Malachi says nothing about paying money to the
Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have to first assume
that the COJCOLDS is God's one and only true corporation on Earth, before you can
logically conclude that the Malachi tithing commandment is satisfied by paying money to
that particular corporation. Does he realize that Malachi also commands proper animal sacrifice? Ask your husband when he last offered a proper animal sacrifice to god. There are severe punishments for not doing so and the last family barbecue does not count ;o) (BTW, reading through Malachi is enough to convince a person that the Old Testament god is a vicious, potty mouthed, money skimming thug, who gets a kick out of watching animals get hacked up and burned.) Yeah. When you really think about it, does it make any sense to assume that the commandment, promises and threats in Malachi in any way amount to instructions to pay 10% of one's income to the Morporation? Why not to the Vatican or to the JWs or to the Seventh-day Adventists--or to me, if I say that god said so? "Hey, I'm tellin' ya. Malachi said that god said that you'd be burned if you don't pay tithing to god and god said to me that he wanted me to receive and spend the money on his behalf." When you boil it all down, this is the message that the Mormon leaders have given their flock on the subject of tithing. I'm a skeptic regarding Christian theology as a whole, but mainstream Christian churches do not emphasize tithing the way Mormonism does. Mormons have a very Old Testament approach to tithing. Mainstream Christians generally believe that Christ's sacrifice did away with the need for such offerings. Believing in Christ and following the golden rule seem to be the cherished ideals of many mainstream Christian churches. The idea that you can appease god and buy salvation from burning by paying him a percentage of your income is regarded as a false and primitive belief by many Christians that I know. |
| Subject: | Try saying to him, "Honey, do you really think that a loving God... |
| Date: | Oct 28 03:36 |
| Author: | Aphrodite |
| would burn us for wanting to support these children we've adopted
from Africa? Don't you want them to have the things they need? Good clothes, food,
education?" Stress to him that you don't have the money to pay, that you need the
money for other things. That might work better than telling him that you don't want your
money going to the Morg. If you do want to tell him your reasoning, tell him that you see no reason why GBH should be living in luxury while your kids from Africa don't have money for school activities. Mention that the Mormon Church has $30 billion in assets. Tell him that you spend more than 10% each month on God's work. If he doubts that, say, "You don't think that raising these kids is part of God's work?" (If there WERE a loving God, I might add.) Also, I would NOT be saying or thinking that the money he makes is just his money and that he has a right to say how it's spent. It sounds like you're the one taking care of ALL those kids you agreed together to have, and that's a lot of work! If he does pay, insist that he pay 10% on HIS half of the household income. You might even want to try what one exmo's TBM spouse did and divide the household income by person. Say, "Well, honey, there are 14 people in this household, so feel free to pay tithing on your fourteenth." It sounds to me like your kids will suffer if you pay tithing, so I hope you find a way to get some sense into your husband's head. Best Wishes! |
| Subject: | It's a joke of a club that church |
| Date: | Oct 28 06:27 |
| Author: | Jolimont |
| The dues are high and the returns nill. Save your money for your
family where it'll do some good. Tell him an average ward in Pleasant Grove turns in $8,000 a week to SLC. That's one ward in a middle class neighborhood, and there are thousands of them just in Utah! Let's do a little math: if there are 1000 such wards in the church and they do this 52 weeks each year, the church has made 416 million dollars that year. Why doesn't the church want members to know how much money comes in? Because it's obscene! Sometimes faithful ward clerks say things like "gees we get less in ward budget than we pay in tithing in one week!" and that's what it means! The LDS church is rich beyond our immagination and what do they do with the money? This is a church that could feed, educate and give health care to every child in Africa, yet they let YOU do it. Feeding a family of 14 on $200/week is an amazing accomplishment, you have my admiration mamacapel! |
| Subject: | Here's how it works for us |
| Date: | Oct 28 07:15 |
| Author: | Bernie W |
| My wife pays tithing on her income from her part-time job. She makes
very little, but at least when she goes into the interview, she can honestly say she is
paying a full tithe. I refuse to pay tithing. I attend to make my wife happy, but I absolutley refuse to pay tithing to that greedy, manipultive, sick, perverted, twisted cult. The most volatile, bitter fights we've had in our marrriage have been over tithing, and my wife used all kinds of pressure to get me to pay tithing from my income. Finally, she relented. And I've been brought back for "interviews" with the bishop under the usual shit of "We're concerned", when it's really, "Where have your tithing checks gone?" I still refuse to budge. My income is 6 times that of my wife, but I still won't give those bastards a nickel I'm not sure my advice will work for you, but to each their own. I applaud you for your courage to see tithing for what it is. The church could care less that for many Mormon families, paying your tithing is the difference between providing for you're family or living on the edge. Case in point. Utah is the leadings state in the country for bankruptcies. Every year, if they aren't the leading state, they are in the top 2. Gee, do you think the greed of the Mormon church has anything to do with it? Good for you for what you are doing for you're family. You sound like a wonderful person. God, provided he does exist, would be more impressed with you looking after your adopted children from Africa than paying ten percent of your gross income to a "church" that takes in 6 BILLION a year in tithing revenue,and whose assets are worth approximately 30 BILLION. The Mormon church wants more tithing revenue so they can continue to invest in the stock market and buy real estate. Good luck to you in whatever you do. I know it won't be easy. I know the frustrations of being married to a fanatical TBM that lives in a fantasy land about the blessings of tithing. |
| Subject: | it isn't "our" money it's his |
| Date: | Oct 28 09:05 |
| Author: | Dee |
| Unfortunatly the way stay at home mom's are seen in our economic culture..it isn't really your money too. My TBM spouse tithes on his income. I have accused him of giving more but he swears he doesn't. I used to fume when I saw the taxes each year when I saw that he contributes about 14% of his gross income (counting fast offerings). It didn't do anything to change him and how I feel never will change his addiction to the Morg. I was the one who suffered so now I just rationalize that he belongs to a very exclusive, expensive club that I am not a member of...Yes, $8-10,000 a year is a huge chunk from our family income. If I left I'd lose $60,000 in income. Would that be a fair trade to soothe my fury? Not as far as I can see. At least now that my children are grown and out of harms way. |
| Subject: | Re: it isn't "our" money it's his |
| Date: | Oct 28 11:16 |
| Author: | Burley Refuge |
| Try letting dear hubby replace his
housekeeper/nurse/teacher/cook/... for less than about $60,000 per year. Its your money too, that was part of the bargain you made when you stayed home. Nobody has a right to take 10% of your money and support an organization against your will. Maybe, if circumstances permit, you should let him fend for himself for a few days to remind him of your value. |
| Subject: | Of course it is all about is FEAR, otherwise he would not be |
| Date: | Oct 28 11:18 |
| AFRAID not to pay it!! If he demands you pay tithing, take it OUT of something HE WANTS and see how fast he looses the FEAR! :-) |
| Subject: | Tithing |
| Date: | Oct 28 11:33 |
| Author: | Ambrielle |
| As Shake Me implies, Tithing is Biblical but tithing is not Christian. |
| Subject: | "That there be meat in my house..." (cuss word) |
| Date: | Oct 28 22:35 |
| Author: | Been there, been scammed! |
| Those of us who have spent years of our productive lives on the ball
point pen half of tithing to an insatiable corporation have heard every threat known to
man to extract every last penny possible from our pockets. As one poster pointed out, the tithing principle comes to us from the OLD TESTAMENT. Pre Jesus Christ. One time I pointed out to my particular religious leader (cold stare, rigid lower jaw) that the tithing system from the Bible was created to support a government that was CIVIL in nature, in addition to religious. That meant that the tithes also supported social welfare, road protection and maintenance, and civil building projects, and not just the palace and temple as many presume. No church on earth comes close to providing that function today that I know of, unless Utahans don't have to pay state or federal taxes. Do they? I don't know. But I bet they do, and this on top of the tithes that come first. Could you imagine only having to pay 10% and that's it? All Americans would be singing a tune if everyone got to keep 90% of their earned income. But that's the deal the Bible dudes got! In the old testament the tithes WERE the taxes that supported the church AND the state. And yet modern churches don't EVER take this into account when calculating your burden to pay "god's tenth" or burn in hell. Gaaaawd! These churches that claim to represent Him are SHAMELESS!!!! And don't buy into this "we are god's government on earth bullshit" because NOWHERE does the Bible state that God's government will have to coexist with the government of man. The Bible, if your husband is inclined to believe it, states that there will be NO confusion as to who is in charge when that day comes. Another poster pointed out that there is still the burden of proof that the legal corporation COJCLDS is indeed where God would have you give money, if indeed that is really what He wants from us. I see no such proof anywhere that any man made temple is God's House. I have reached a point that I won't give a DIME to an organization that does not have completely open books. Truth holds up quite well to scrutiny! What are they concealing from you? Just have faith? Well, after the Book of Abraham, I don't think so! What did the bible have to say about TRUE religion? James 1:27 "...to visit the fatherless (little muffins from Africa?) and the widows in their affliction." You HAVE true religion right there at home, good woman. The tithing settlements just to chant nonsense in a temple full of hypocrites bloated with self-importance is just plain old bullshit! |
| Subject: | Re: Who decides the tithing question in a "mixed" marriage? |
| Date: | Oct 28 22:53 |
| Author: | b4freedom |
| I hate to break this to you, but if you took your $500 a month and
invested it in a 401k that earned 8% a year for 40 years, you'd have 1.7 million dollars. I don't know anyone that has paid tithing and been blessed with 1.7 million dollars. Do you? How about you compromise with him: agree to take all tithing money and put it into a 401k. Upon retirement you'll pay all back tithing that was due plus 10% of what you earned in your 401k. That would still leave you 1.3 million (and you'd pay over $400k in tithing). Or... You could continue to pay $500 a month. Over 40 years you'd be paying $240,000 to the church and be left with nothing but blessings. |
| Subject: | How I handled this issue... |
| Date: | Oct 28 23:14 |
| Author: | Chris |
| I was in your situation a couple of years ago. I am an apostate wife and had a TBM husband. Since rationalizing with my husband about why I thought it was absurd to pay tithing was futile, I made the only argument that I thought was valid that didn't insult his sense of faith. I told him that I felt strongly that although he was the one technically earning the money, I felt like half of it was mine. I told him that he wouldn't be able to work without childcare/housekeeping costs if it weren't for me--sacrificing to stay home with our children. In the past, we had always considered his salary "our money". I just appealed to that sense of fairness and told him that I didn't want to pay tithing on "my half" of the salary. I don't think he was thrilled with the situation, but it did make sense to him. Just a thought...it worked for us. Good luck! |
| Subject: | Suggestion for a fair arrangement... |
| Date: | Oct 29 19:55 |
| Author: | whatever |
| As the breadwinner in my mixed-religion marriage, I had to deal with
this from a somewhat different perspective. My wife was TBM and wanted us to pay tithing
on "our" money. (The proposition is fair enough, since I really do see it as
"our" money). As a compromise, I proposed that we create two 'discretionary' pots. One for my wife to use in any way she wishes and one for me to use in any way I wish. I don't really care how big the pots are, as long as they're both the same size, so everything is fair. She could pay her entire pot as Tithing, without any complaint from me, and I could use my pot to travel Europe, buy a sports car (for myself, not her), get a home theater system we normally can't afford, go blow the money in Vegas, or whatever else I wanted without any complaint from her. Of course we would have to curtail other aspects of our lifestyle (sell our home and move into a trailer, sell our second car, etc) to accommodate the loss of 20% of our gross (35% of our after tax) income, but I was willing to do it if she was. Fortunately, when faced with such a Solomon-esque proposal, she realized we can't afford to throw away huge chunks of "our" money to the church or any other frivolous affair. It really changed her perspective. Maybe a similar proposal might make your husband see things fairly too. whatever |
| Subject: | Perhaps a milder proposal... |
| Date: | Oct 29 20:41 |
| Author: | whatever |
| A variant on the theme above... Tell him that 10% covers blessings for the whole family, and that you want your half of the blessings directly. Tell him he can pay his half (5%) to the church and have his spiritual blessings (without any complaint from you), and you'll use your half (5%) for material blessings like a night out with the girls, long therapy massages, little weekend jaunts to Hawaii, etc (without any complaint from him). Even if he goes along with it, so what? In exchange for him throwing 5% down the black hole known as LDS, Inc, you now have 5% of his gross income for personal pleasures you wouldn't otherwise have. Hire a stripping telegram with your part of the money to drop off his part of the money over at the Bishop's house! When you're pissing away 10% of the household income, might as well have some fun with it! whatever |