Recovery from Mormonism Mentioned at lds.net

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>by presbyterian Jan 2012</p>\n<p>Very sad person mentioned reading stuff here.</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/44766-my-thoughts-evening.html\" title=\"http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/44766-my-thoughts-evening.html\">http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/44766-my-thoughts-evenin...</a></p>\n<hr />\nThe Man in Black<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\n\"ExMo and other sites are filled with angry folks for various reasons, but, one thing that site and other sites designed to disprove the church have in common, is they are as destructive as pornography and will fuel your doubts.\"\n<p>Gee you\'d think that since everything said here is an easily proven lie it would strengthen a testimony. One thing is true though, this site will fuel your doubts. With lies of course.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>The Man in Black<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nAnother gem.</p>\n<p>\"You can sometimes find peace of mind or seek smarts. Well, some things do not come through smarts. Exmormon.org is not going to give you answers, just questions. I suggest you rethink your strategy, because the one you are using isn\'t working.\"</p>\n<p>I really like the part where this becomes a problem with \"strategy\" and blames the individual for doing something wrong. It\'s a textbook double-bind.</p>\n<hr />\nsummer<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nSo far, three of the initial nine posters have admitted to reading our board. Purely for informational purposes, I\'m sure.\n<hr />\n<p>elysiannevermo<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\n\"If I ever go to one I get a nauseous feeling in my stomach. I suppose that is one sign of a testimony to me that the Gospel is true. Not the sign I would want to look for voluntarily.\"</p>\n<p>From the second poster...</p>\n<p>So if I get a queasy feeling by going to a pro-mormon site does that mean it is not true for me but true for them?</p>\n<hr />\n<p>CA girl<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nThat nauseous feeling is actually the uncomfortable feeling of having your beliefs challenged when you were raised in a culture of \"no questioning, follow the prophet, the thinking has been done for you, bow your head and say yes and a culture that values conformity. Unlike most people who live in a culture where you think for yourself, live comfortably with people who have different opinions and lifestyles, where individualism is valued more than conformity and where your worth isn\'t based on how well you fit into a mold. In other words, where people can disagree with you and you can still be friends. Disagreement doesn\'t immediately spell persecution.</p>\n<p>Mormons don\'t understand people who choose to live differently than them because they don\'t find Mormon standards to be an improvement. They don\'t know how to deal with people who laugh at them and/or disagree with them. It either brings out their arrogance or their paranoia. And that makes them nauseous.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Ishmael<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nSummer,</p>\n<p>Just as I\'m sure they read Playboy only for the well written articles. Honestly, comparing a bulletin board to pornography.</p>\n<p>Seriously, I have learned more about the effects of a corporation disguised as a religion here than I could learn anywhere else. I started reading to find out why so many friends were hurting so much, and the support that is offered here to people who are discovering the truth has kept me reading.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>wittyname<br />\nDestructive as porn<br />\nlolololol</p>\n<p>intellectualism... the thinking person\'s porn.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>mre<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nI wonder how long it\'ll take me to get banned if I keep posting like I did.</p>\n<p>I wasn\'t the most adamant about my belief that the church is false, but you can never convince the other side of wrongdoing if you back them into a corner (or so I figure) - so I tried to be a bit more diplomatic.</p>\n<p>We\'ll see how this goes.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>derrida<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nInteresting thread there. Thanks for sharing it.</p>\n<p>Dove wrote the following:</p>\n<p>\"If you read the Book of Mormon, you will find out that the gentiles (us) are meant to have testimonies only through the Holy Ghost, and not outstanding, obvious signs and miracles.\"</p>\n<p>Well isn\'t that convenient? We were MEANT not have any empirical proof.</p>\n<p>\"Be honored that God trusts you so much to not have to have it given to you obviously for you to follow and believe.\"</p>\n<p>What manipulative hooey. One is supposed to feel honored that there is no clear proof. Huh? Magic will save us!</p>\n<p>\"Stop worrying about whether or not you KNOW it\'s true before you act on what you have been taught and believe.\"</p>\n<p>A person has no right to want conviction before acting in ways that can have lasting impact on one\'s life and family? Very convenient for the seller to get the buyer to \"stop worrying\"--just buy our stuff.</p>\n<p>The rest of Dove\'s post is just pitching the OP into a circle of belief that will validate itself if he doesn\'t put any critical pressure on it anywhere. On those grounds anything can be true. Anything can resist scrutiny that never happens.</p>\n<p>The church wants us to give it an endless benefit of the doubt. Of course, rejecting the church isn\'t an option. So what sort of farce of spiritual examination and testing is really going on here?</p>\n<hr />\n<p>grubbygert<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nnice rack on that one angel...</p>\n<p>(maybe i should make an effort at the celestial kingdom after all)</p>\n<hr />\ncatnip<br />\nMaybe one day, we will be welcoming him over here<br />\non a more permanent basis.\n<p>Most of us have been where he is. I can only wish him the best on his journey.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>hero7<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nI really like this post</p>\n<p>\"there are somethings to note about exmormon.org. as a person that has read like 40 hours of that stuff. partly because i am curious and partly because i want to hear what the other side says. and because my testimony is strong enough to withstand the sickening feeling i get reading it and not collapse.\"</p>\n<p>REALLY???</p>\n<hr />\nmre<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nYeah, I gave that guy a long response. I wanted to be a lot more rude about it, but... you can\'t convince someone of something when you turn them off by being rude. &gt;_&gt;\n<p>It\'s really hard.</p>\n<hr />\njessica<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nSince this poster seems to read here so much, I\'d like to comment on his post---\n<p>\"all of those folks follow a similar pattern.</p>\n<p>they start out questioning something(questions are good) which leads down to two things. one they find something usually something obsecure to doubt themselves. then suddenly they doubt whatever made them join the church to begin with. alot of times these are return missionary stories on there. i served a great wonderful mission and had a blast. my testimony is great.</p>\n<p>they then consult quite often google seemingly unaware of how anti mormon the world is an confirm there doubts. they are confirmed though really cause they are looking for an excuse for their doubts to be true. the odd thing is here is where they start to realize i never had a testimony not once yet i still did all this stuff....first this is highly illogical. secondly why would you continue going to a church for 30 years and not believe it? the level of stupidity starts getting high from here on out.</p>\n<p>now here is where it varies a little</p>\n<p>depending if the person in question has a highly populated LDS family or if they are a loner. if they are a highly populated family they now struggle with the family betrayal issue. if they are a loner they now dont want to look back at their families that gave them the finger for joining in the first place.</p>\n<p>now a few things happen.</p>\n<p>1. if they are temple endowed as usually the case in these stories...the level of guilt these people express is downright alarming and staggering. seriously these people get torn up over having to get rid of the garments. they really get eaten alive. this is straight on the The Holy Ghost smacking them across the head for being idiots.<br />\n2. they become conflicted on how to stop going to church....seriously they get torn up over this.<br />\n3. if the person is married or has kids....oh man hell is about to be unleashed.</p>\n<p>the end result is usually an angry person that is bitter at the church because they went to church for 30+ years of their own free will. they are divorced usually over this random doubt they had one day. family members hate them. and quite a few dont stop wearing temple garments for a good year or two after they become completely inactive. they then post on that website and act like completely angry bitter people and make it their life\'s mission to topple the church.</p>\n<p>these people then start smoking drinking and participating in all manner of sexual perversions and sexual sin. its quite an interesting fall from grace but more or less every story on exmormon.org follows this exact format.</p>\n<p>you will of course find a number of stories of people claiming to tell off bishops and stake presidents in excommunication meetings. there is no evidence they did or didnt do this. but given how guilt stricken many of them are in these stories i suspect it is the total opposite. i suspect the bishops and stake presidents hit them where it hurts. and they are now angry internet bloggers.</p>\n<p>the end result is a bitter now smoker alcoholic with a mission to kill the church.</p>\n<p>also ive never seen one happy post there. not one single happy person posting there. not one. the irony here is of course some will then profess other christian religions as the one and completely overlook the flaws in those in religions and not even bother to fact check them. why? they can drink smoke and buy hookers with no punishment.(no offense intended to other religions just stating the frame of mind of the people on exmormon.org)\"</p>\n<p>I\'m not a smoker or an alcoholic and the only sexual perversions I do are with my spouse (don\'t worry we aren\'t into anything weird, we just go beyond the missionary position). I read quite a bit, and I\'ve read some interesting and very true things about the LDS church--I didn\'t have a little doubt that I verified online, I had many doubts and LDS websites were my first stop in the information highway. I was not justifying anything, just wanted to know what was true. There are many obscure historical things about the church that don\'t make sense and everyone is a little different in how they react to them depending on whether or not they knew about it beforehand or not ie: polygamy. But for me, I knew a lot of that already what got me was the Book of Abraham, good video here:<br />\n<a href=\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE\" title=\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE\">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE</a></p>\n<p>And the multiple versions of the first vision:<br />\n<a href=\"http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm\" title=\"http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm\">http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm</a></p>\n<p>I do not think those two events are obscure at all..in fact to me they are HUGE parts of the gospel I once believed. Yes I did have a testimony of the gospel at one point, and yes that is why I continued to go for 30+ years, I wanted it to be true. I believed Joseph Smith was a prophet..but the more I read the more I knew he was not. You can\'t make every decision in your life based on emotion and that Holy Ghost burning feeling is not unique to Mormonism.</p>\n<p>Yesterday I got rid of my garments after years of not wearing them, this is not the Holy Ghost smacking me for being an idiot or if it was it was because it was because I believed it all to begin with. It is hard to let go of something you truly believed in and then found out was untrue. Your eternal family is on the line until you realize the restoration of the priesthood is all a fake too. Imagine wondering if your marriage really mattered at all being married in the temple--those garments are so tied to family and family connections that it is hard to admit, we would be a good family anyway without the temple, which is actually the truth. I am married and have kids but all hell has not broken lose--some families break up, mine has not and will not.</p>\n<p>I am not angry or bitter at the church--I was in the beginning of this process though I will admit, but more than anything I was angry at myself--angry I fell for it for so long, bitter at my parents for raising me to believe such nonsense, but now I am at peace--and here is the happy post you never seem to see--I love the freedom to make my own decisions, I love that there are greys in this world and I know that I will not turn out to be an alcoholic, smoking, hooker paying member of society because I left the Mormon church which your black and white view supports. I know I am a good person with a moral compass, and I have a broader view of humanity in general now.</p>\n<p>I don\'t know if other religions are true or not, I don\'t know if God exists or not..but I am ok with who I am and I am ok with who my husband is, and I love my family. I don\'t come here to tear down the church, I come here because finally for once in my life there are people I can talk to who are going through the same things, who don\'t tell me to go pray and read the scriptures to get my answer. What you and the original poster are having trouble stomaching here at Rfm is the anger, I still have a hard time with it too, the horror stories here such as abuse and families breaking up are horrifying and those going through them have every right to be angry, they seem to get the most responses too, imagine that, support for people who need it. But stay here awhile and you will see the happy stories too..people like me who are not bitter or angry anymore..who are at peace with their lives and willing to look beyond themselves and help others.</p>\n<hr />\njessica<br />\nRe: This site mentioned on LDS.NET<br />\nYour response is really good I think! I posted mine below--I don\'t want to sign up for that site but if he really read Rfm, he\'ll see it.\n<hr />\n<p>Thomas $. Monson<br />\nRe: Destructive as porn<br />\nIf this site is like pornography, why are they reading here??<br />\nI thought it was forbidden.</p>\n<hr />\nPosted by: sexismyreligion<br />\nThis is pretty interesting.<br />\n><br />\n \"all of those folks follow a similar pattern.\"\n<p>Notice how it starts by saying we are all the same. We are the most diverse group you could find, from former stake presidents to nevermos who are just interested, across the spectrum of age, race, socioeconomic class, each with our own reasons for being here. But saying that we\'re all the same is the necessary first step to discounting all of our experiences.</p>\n<p>\"they start out questioning something(questions are good) which leads down to two things. one they find something usually something obsecure to doubt themselves. then suddenly they doubt whatever made them join the church to begin with. alot of times these are return missionary stories on there. i served a great wonderful mission and had a blast. my testimony is great.\"</p>\n<p>Questions are good, but the problem occurs when people won\'t accept the answers that \"it\'s not essential to your salvation\" and \"you\'ll find out when you get to the celestial kingdom\".<br />\nSide note - what\'s with everyone calling them return missionaries? It\'s RETURNED missionaries. As in, they left and returned. Yeah, I know, I\'m a grammar nazi.</p>\n<p>\"they then consult quite often google seemingly unaware of how anti mormon the world is an confirm there doubts. they are confirmed though really cause they are looking for an excuse for their doubts to be true.\"</p>\n<p>Ah yes, the evils of Google...because the entire world is controlled by Satan, and all of reality is set up in a way to make it LOOK LIKE the church isn\'t true, because it\'s a test. Anyone who would accept objective reality over the emotional witness of the Holy Ghost is really just looking for an excuse to sin. There\'s no arguing against this kind of logic..</p>\n<p>\"the odd thing is here is where<br />\nthey start to realize i never had a testimony not<br />\nonce yet i still did all this stuff....first this<br />\nis highly illogical.\"</p>\n<p>And suddenly we\'re going to try to use logic! Although I don\'t see what\'s illogical about a person realizing that the testimony they thought they had was actually based on emotion.</p>\n<p>\"secondly why would you<br />\ncontinue going to a church for 30 years and not<br />\nbelieve it? the level of stupidity starts getting<br />\nhigh from here on out.\"</p>\n<p>Lots of reasons...this is where we get back to the point that exmos are unique. Some people think they believe it for 30 years, then realize when they get out that they had doubts all along. Some know it\'s fake but keep going for family reasons. Some find it difficult to break free of the indoctrination of their childhood, even after discovering the fraud. All perfectly reasonable. There\'s no need to label other people as stupid just because you don\'t understand their situation.</p>\n<p>now here is where it varies a little</p>\n<p>\" depending if the person in question has a highly<br />\n populated LDS family or if they are a loner. if<br />\n they are a highly populated family they now<br />\n struggle with the family betrayal issue. if they<br />\n are a loner they now dont want to look back at<br />\n their families that gave them the finger for<br />\n joining in the first place.\"</p>\n<p>False dichotomy, of course...there are plenty of options between \"highly populated LDS family\" and \"loner\".</p>\n<p>\" now a few things happen.</p>\n<p> 1. if they are temple endowed as usually the case<br />\n in these stories...the level of guilt these people<br />\n express is downright alarming and staggering.<br />\n seriously these people get torn up over having to<br />\n get rid of the garments. they really get eaten<br />\n alive. this is straight on the The Holy Ghost<br />\n smacking them across the head for being idiots.\"</p>\n<p>Some people feel guilty, others don\'t. It\'s based on their understanding, their level of indoctrination, how far along they are in the process of recovery. This is really one of the main purposes of this site, to help people get past the unnecessary guilt. The \"Holy Ghost\" is really just the Church conditioning that people have to overcome. In my case, I stopped wearing garments because I misunderstood and thought I was no longer worthy to wear them, like being unworthy to take the sacrament, because I was lacking in faith.</p>\n<p>\" 2. they become conflicted on how to stop going to<br />\n church....seriously they get torn up over this.\"</p>\n<p>It depends. Usually it\'s fairly easy to stop going...just sleep in on Sunday! I kept going for over a year because I wanted to be sure I wasn\'t making a mistake...kind of the reverse of an investigator, seeing all the flaws in doctrine and practice, to prove to myself that it\'s not true. I didn\'t quit going until I was absolutely sure.</p>\n<p>\" 3. if the person is married or has kids....oh man<br />\n hell is about to be unleashed.\"</p>\n<p>Yes, this is the sad part, how the LDS church holds families hostage. Enough said.</p>\n<p>\" the end result is usually an angry person that is<br />\n bitter at the church because they went to church<br />\n for 30+ years of their own free will.\"</p>\n<p>Or because they were lied to for 30+ years, maybe?</p>\n<p>\" they are<br />\n divorced usually over this random doubt they had<br />\n one day. family members hate them.\"</p>\n<p>Families shouldn\'t have to break up over religious differences. Most religions don\'t tear families apart when one individual changes religion. This is a problem that seems to occur much more often in Mormonism, and is a major reason why the LDS church is accused of being a \"cult\". Of course, as a TBM, this poster would like to blame the person leaving for having the problem. News flash - most religions don\'t destroy your family if you leave.</p>\n<p>and quite a few<br />\n> dont stop wearing temple garments for a good year<br />\n> or two after they become completely inactive. they<br />\n> then post on that website and act like completely<br />\n> angry bitter people and make it their life\'s<br />\n> mission to topple the church.</p>\n<p>Yes, the bitter apostate who can\'t leave the church alone. We do tend to have more people who are angry and bitter than those who just go on their way...that\'s because the ones who leave the church alone don\'t bother to post here! For many people here, the LDS church won\'t leave them alone, which makes them angry.</p>\n<p>\" these people then start smoking drinking and<br />\n participating in all manner of sexual perversions<br />\n and sexual sin. its quite an interesting fall from<br />\n grace but more or less every story on exmormon.org<br />\n follows this exact format.\"</p>\n<p>Except the ones that don\'t. A lot of people decide to try alcohol and see if they enjoy it. Some even start drinking tea or coffee. Most people don\'t take up smoking, because they know the adverse health effects. Most don\'t participate in sexual perversions, unless you define perversions to include anything other than missionary position with a spouse. There\'s a lot of variety in what people choose to do with their lives outside of Mormonism, and certainly no exact format.</p>\n<p>\" you will of course find a number of stories of<br />\n people claiming to tell off bishops and stake<br />\n presidents in excommunication meetings. there is<br />\n no evidence they did or didnt do this. but given<br />\n how guilt stricken many of them are in these<br />\n stories i suspect it is the total opposite. i<br />\n suspect the bishops and stake presidents hit them<br />\n where it hurts. and they are now angry internet<br />\n bloggers.\"</p>\n<p>Of course, you\'d like to assume that exmos don\'t have the balls to stand up to a bishop or stake president, especially if you\'re a TBM who can\'t imagine doing that yourself. Lyndon Lambern recorded his own excommunication for non-belief, and you can listen to the recording yourself on the internet if you search using the EVIL GOOGLE.</p>\n<p>\" the end result is a bitter now smoker alcoholic<br />\n with a mission to kill the church.\"</p>\n<p>Yes, this is what happens to EVERY SINGLE PERSON who leaves the LDS church. <b>Except for the majority who don\'t end up like that.</b></p>\n<p>\" also ive never seen one happy post there. not one<br />\n single happy person posting there. not one.\"</p>\n<p>Check out Timothy\'s What are you drinking? threads! Plenty of happy people there!</p>\n<p>\"the<br />\n irony here is of course some will then profess<br />\n other christian religions as the one and<br />\n completely overlook the flaws in those in<br />\n religions and not even bother to fact check them.<br />\n why? they can drink smoke and buy hookers with no<br />\n punishment.(no offense intended to other religions<br />\n just stating the frame of mind of the people on<br />\n exmormon.org)\"\"</p>\n<p>Of course, because the only reason people would leave your One True Church is to sin. There\'s no other possible explanation in your mind. Nothing anyone else says will change your mind. <b>Don\'t let little details like facts get in your way.</b></p>\n<p>TBMs are brainwashed to believe that if they even read ANY \"anti\" material, Satan (or Stan as I like to call him) has the power to deceive and lead them astray. This raises a couple of obvious questions in my mind. First, shouldn\'t gawd be more powerful than Stan? And shouldn\'t TRUTH always win out when information is studied, tested, and investigated? In other words, shouldn\'t gawd/the church WANT his TBMs to study everything they can, knowing that TSCC will ALWAYS prove to be true??</p>\n<hr />\nPosted by: nowI\'mfound<br />\nThey fear members investigating this site and others like it because they know that there are facts about TSCC [this so called church] that can\'t be denied. Facts that will plant themselves in the back of any semi-conscious TBMs mind, and eventually grow into genuine doubts. There\'s no smoke in mirrors here. We are only pointing out what many of us as former TBMs have discovered--the church is NOT true. And all the hiding your head in the sand or ignoring your queasy tummy won\'t make it so.\n<hr />\n', created = 1492934170, expire = 1493020570, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:e49c84d4aa31d5101fe885296eda98af' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

by presbyterian Jan 2012

Very sad person mentioned reading stuff here.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/44766-my-thoughts-evenin...


The Man in Black
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
"ExMo and other sites are filled with angry folks for various reasons, but, one thing that site and other sites designed to disprove the church have in common, is they are as destructive as pornography and will fuel your doubts."

Gee you'd think that since everything said here is an easily proven lie it would strengthen a testimony. One thing is true though, this site will fuel your doubts. With lies of course.


The Man in Black
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
Another gem.

"You can sometimes find peace of mind or seek smarts. Well, some things do not come through smarts. Exmormon.org is not going to give you answers, just questions. I suggest you rethink your strategy, because the one you are using isn't working."

I really like the part where this becomes a problem with "strategy" and blames the individual for doing something wrong. It's a textbook double-bind.


summer
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
So far, three of the initial nine posters have admitted to reading our board. Purely for informational purposes, I'm sure.

elysiannevermo
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
"If I ever go to one I get a nauseous feeling in my stomach. I suppose that is one sign of a testimony to me that the Gospel is true. Not the sign I would want to look for voluntarily."

From the second poster...

So if I get a queasy feeling by going to a pro-mormon site does that mean it is not true for me but true for them?


CA girl
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
That nauseous feeling is actually the uncomfortable feeling of having your beliefs challenged when you were raised in a culture of "no questioning, follow the prophet, the thinking has been done for you, bow your head and say yes and a culture that values conformity. Unlike most people who live in a culture where you think for yourself, live comfortably with people who have different opinions and lifestyles, where individualism is valued more than conformity and where your worth isn't based on how well you fit into a mold. In other words, where people can disagree with you and you can still be friends. Disagreement doesn't immediately spell persecution.

Mormons don't understand people who choose to live differently than them because they don't find Mormon standards to be an improvement. They don't know how to deal with people who laugh at them and/or disagree with them. It either brings out their arrogance or their paranoia. And that makes them nauseous.


Ishmael
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
Summer,

Just as I'm sure they read Playboy only for the well written articles. Honestly, comparing a bulletin board to pornography.

Seriously, I have learned more about the effects of a corporation disguised as a religion here than I could learn anywhere else. I started reading to find out why so many friends were hurting so much, and the support that is offered here to people who are discovering the truth has kept me reading.


wittyname
Destructive as porn
lolololol

intellectualism... the thinking person's porn.


mre
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
I wonder how long it'll take me to get banned if I keep posting like I did.

I wasn't the most adamant about my belief that the church is false, but you can never convince the other side of wrongdoing if you back them into a corner (or so I figure) - so I tried to be a bit more diplomatic.

We'll see how this goes.


derrida
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
Interesting thread there. Thanks for sharing it.

Dove wrote the following:

"If you read the Book of Mormon, you will find out that the gentiles (us) are meant to have testimonies only through the Holy Ghost, and not outstanding, obvious signs and miracles."

Well isn't that convenient? We were MEANT not have any empirical proof.

"Be honored that God trusts you so much to not have to have it given to you obviously for you to follow and believe."

What manipulative hooey. One is supposed to feel honored that there is no clear proof. Huh? Magic will save us!

"Stop worrying about whether or not you KNOW it's true before you act on what you have been taught and believe."

A person has no right to want conviction before acting in ways that can have lasting impact on one's life and family? Very convenient for the seller to get the buyer to "stop worrying"--just buy our stuff.

The rest of Dove's post is just pitching the OP into a circle of belief that will validate itself if he doesn't put any critical pressure on it anywhere. On those grounds anything can be true. Anything can resist scrutiny that never happens.

The church wants us to give it an endless benefit of the doubt. Of course, rejecting the church isn't an option. So what sort of farce of spiritual examination and testing is really going on here?


grubbygert
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
nice rack on that one angel...

(maybe i should make an effort at the celestial kingdom after all)


catnip
Maybe one day, we will be welcoming him over here
on a more permanent basis.

Most of us have been where he is. I can only wish him the best on his journey.


hero7
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
I really like this post

"there are somethings to note about exmormon.org. as a person that has read like 40 hours of that stuff. partly because i am curious and partly because i want to hear what the other side says. and because my testimony is strong enough to withstand the sickening feeling i get reading it and not collapse."

REALLY???


mre
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
Yeah, I gave that guy a long response. I wanted to be a lot more rude about it, but... you can't convince someone of something when you turn them off by being rude. >_>

It's really hard.


jessica
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
Since this poster seems to read here so much, I'd like to comment on his post---

"all of those folks follow a similar pattern.

they start out questioning something(questions are good) which leads down to two things. one they find something usually something obsecure to doubt themselves. then suddenly they doubt whatever made them join the church to begin with. alot of times these are return missionary stories on there. i served a great wonderful mission and had a blast. my testimony is great.

they then consult quite often google seemingly unaware of how anti mormon the world is an confirm there doubts. they are confirmed though really cause they are looking for an excuse for their doubts to be true. the odd thing is here is where they start to realize i never had a testimony not once yet i still did all this stuff....first this is highly illogical. secondly why would you continue going to a church for 30 years and not believe it? the level of stupidity starts getting high from here on out.

now here is where it varies a little

depending if the person in question has a highly populated LDS family or if they are a loner. if they are a highly populated family they now struggle with the family betrayal issue. if they are a loner they now dont want to look back at their families that gave them the finger for joining in the first place.

now a few things happen.

1. if they are temple endowed as usually the case in these stories...the level of guilt these people express is downright alarming and staggering. seriously these people get torn up over having to get rid of the garments. they really get eaten alive. this is straight on the The Holy Ghost smacking them across the head for being idiots.
2. they become conflicted on how to stop going to church....seriously they get torn up over this.
3. if the person is married or has kids....oh man hell is about to be unleashed.

the end result is usually an angry person that is bitter at the church because they went to church for 30+ years of their own free will. they are divorced usually over this random doubt they had one day. family members hate them. and quite a few dont stop wearing temple garments for a good year or two after they become completely inactive. they then post on that website and act like completely angry bitter people and make it their life's mission to topple the church.

these people then start smoking drinking and participating in all manner of sexual perversions and sexual sin. its quite an interesting fall from grace but more or less every story on exmormon.org follows this exact format.

you will of course find a number of stories of people claiming to tell off bishops and stake presidents in excommunication meetings. there is no evidence they did or didnt do this. but given how guilt stricken many of them are in these stories i suspect it is the total opposite. i suspect the bishops and stake presidents hit them where it hurts. and they are now angry internet bloggers.

the end result is a bitter now smoker alcoholic with a mission to kill the church.

also ive never seen one happy post there. not one single happy person posting there. not one. the irony here is of course some will then profess other christian religions as the one and completely overlook the flaws in those in religions and not even bother to fact check them. why? they can drink smoke and buy hookers with no punishment.(no offense intended to other religions just stating the frame of mind of the people on exmormon.org)"

I'm not a smoker or an alcoholic and the only sexual perversions I do are with my spouse (don't worry we aren't into anything weird, we just go beyond the missionary position). I read quite a bit, and I've read some interesting and very true things about the LDS church--I didn't have a little doubt that I verified online, I had many doubts and LDS websites were my first stop in the information highway. I was not justifying anything, just wanted to know what was true. There are many obscure historical things about the church that don't make sense and everyone is a little different in how they react to them depending on whether or not they knew about it beforehand or not ie: polygamy. But for me, I knew a lot of that already what got me was the Book of Abraham, good video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

And the multiple versions of the first vision:
http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm

I do not think those two events are obscure at all..in fact to me they are HUGE parts of the gospel I once believed. Yes I did have a testimony of the gospel at one point, and yes that is why I continued to go for 30+ years, I wanted it to be true. I believed Joseph Smith was a prophet..but the more I read the more I knew he was not. You can't make every decision in your life based on emotion and that Holy Ghost burning feeling is not unique to Mormonism.

Yesterday I got rid of my garments after years of not wearing them, this is not the Holy Ghost smacking me for being an idiot or if it was it was because it was because I believed it all to begin with. It is hard to let go of something you truly believed in and then found out was untrue. Your eternal family is on the line until you realize the restoration of the priesthood is all a fake too. Imagine wondering if your marriage really mattered at all being married in the temple--those garments are so tied to family and family connections that it is hard to admit, we would be a good family anyway without the temple, which is actually the truth. I am married and have kids but all hell has not broken lose--some families break up, mine has not and will not.

I am not angry or bitter at the church--I was in the beginning of this process though I will admit, but more than anything I was angry at myself--angry I fell for it for so long, bitter at my parents for raising me to believe such nonsense, but now I am at peace--and here is the happy post you never seem to see--I love the freedom to make my own decisions, I love that there are greys in this world and I know that I will not turn out to be an alcoholic, smoking, hooker paying member of society because I left the Mormon church which your black and white view supports. I know I am a good person with a moral compass, and I have a broader view of humanity in general now.

I don't know if other religions are true or not, I don't know if God exists or not..but I am ok with who I am and I am ok with who my husband is, and I love my family. I don't come here to tear down the church, I come here because finally for once in my life there are people I can talk to who are going through the same things, who don't tell me to go pray and read the scriptures to get my answer. What you and the original poster are having trouble stomaching here at Rfm is the anger, I still have a hard time with it too, the horror stories here such as abuse and families breaking up are horrifying and those going through them have every right to be angry, they seem to get the most responses too, imagine that, support for people who need it. But stay here awhile and you will see the happy stories too..people like me who are not bitter or angry anymore..who are at peace with their lives and willing to look beyond themselves and help others.


jessica
Re: This site mentioned on LDS.NET
Your response is really good I think! I posted mine below--I don't want to sign up for that site but if he really read Rfm, he'll see it.

Thomas $. Monson
Re: Destructive as porn
If this site is like pornography, why are they reading here??
I thought it was forbidden.


Posted by: sexismyreligion
This is pretty interesting.
>
"all of those folks follow a similar pattern."

Notice how it starts by saying we are all the same. We are the most diverse group you could find, from former stake presidents to nevermos who are just interested, across the spectrum of age, race, socioeconomic class, each with our own reasons for being here. But saying that we're all the same is the necessary first step to discounting all of our experiences.

"they start out questioning something(questions are good) which leads down to two things. one they find something usually something obsecure to doubt themselves. then suddenly they doubt whatever made them join the church to begin with. alot of times these are return missionary stories on there. i served a great wonderful mission and had a blast. my testimony is great."

Questions are good, but the problem occurs when people won't accept the answers that "it's not essential to your salvation" and "you'll find out when you get to the celestial kingdom".
Side note - what's with everyone calling them return missionaries? It's RETURNED missionaries. As in, they left and returned. Yeah, I know, I'm a grammar nazi.

"they then consult quite often google seemingly unaware of how anti mormon the world is an confirm there doubts. they are confirmed though really cause they are looking for an excuse for their doubts to be true."

Ah yes, the evils of Google...because the entire world is controlled by Satan, and all of reality is set up in a way to make it LOOK LIKE the church isn't true, because it's a test. Anyone who would accept objective reality over the emotional witness of the Holy Ghost is really just looking for an excuse to sin. There's no arguing against this kind of logic..

"the odd thing is here is where
they start to realize i never had a testimony not
once yet i still did all this stuff....first this
is highly illogical."

And suddenly we're going to try to use logic! Although I don't see what's illogical about a person realizing that the testimony they thought they had was actually based on emotion.

"secondly why would you
continue going to a church for 30 years and not
believe it? the level of stupidity starts getting
high from here on out."

Lots of reasons...this is where we get back to the point that exmos are unique. Some people think they believe it for 30 years, then realize when they get out that they had doubts all along. Some know it's fake but keep going for family reasons. Some find it difficult to break free of the indoctrination of their childhood, even after discovering the fraud. All perfectly reasonable. There's no need to label other people as stupid just because you don't understand their situation.

now here is where it varies a little

" depending if the person in question has a highly
populated LDS family or if they are a loner. if
they are a highly populated family they now
struggle with the family betrayal issue. if they
are a loner they now dont want to look back at
their families that gave them the finger for
joining in the first place."

False dichotomy, of course...there are plenty of options between "highly populated LDS family" and "loner".

" now a few things happen.

1. if they are temple endowed as usually the case
in these stories...the level of guilt these people
express is downright alarming and staggering.
seriously these people get torn up over having to
get rid of the garments. they really get eaten
alive. this is straight on the The Holy Ghost
smacking them across the head for being idiots."

Some people feel guilty, others don't. It's based on their understanding, their level of indoctrination, how far along they are in the process of recovery. This is really one of the main purposes of this site, to help people get past the unnecessary guilt. The "Holy Ghost" is really just the Church conditioning that people have to overcome. In my case, I stopped wearing garments because I misunderstood and thought I was no longer worthy to wear them, like being unworthy to take the sacrament, because I was lacking in faith.

" 2. they become conflicted on how to stop going to
church....seriously they get torn up over this."

It depends. Usually it's fairly easy to stop going...just sleep in on Sunday! I kept going for over a year because I wanted to be sure I wasn't making a mistake...kind of the reverse of an investigator, seeing all the flaws in doctrine and practice, to prove to myself that it's not true. I didn't quit going until I was absolutely sure.

" 3. if the person is married or has kids....oh man
hell is about to be unleashed."

Yes, this is the sad part, how the LDS church holds families hostage. Enough said.

" the end result is usually an angry person that is
bitter at the church because they went to church
for 30+ years of their own free will."

Or because they were lied to for 30+ years, maybe?

" they are
divorced usually over this random doubt they had
one day. family members hate them."

Families shouldn't have to break up over religious differences. Most religions don't tear families apart when one individual changes religion. This is a problem that seems to occur much more often in Mormonism, and is a major reason why the LDS church is accused of being a "cult". Of course, as a TBM, this poster would like to blame the person leaving for having the problem. News flash - most religions don't destroy your family if you leave.

and quite a few
> dont stop wearing temple garments for a good year
> or two after they become completely inactive. they
> then post on that website and act like completely
> angry bitter people and make it their life's
> mission to topple the church.

Yes, the bitter apostate who can't leave the church alone. We do tend to have more people who are angry and bitter than those who just go on their way...that's because the ones who leave the church alone don't bother to post here! For many people here, the LDS church won't leave them alone, which makes them angry.

" these people then start smoking drinking and
participating in all manner of sexual perversions
and sexual sin. its quite an interesting fall from
grace but more or less every story on exmormon.org
follows this exact format."

Except the ones that don't. A lot of people decide to try alcohol and see if they enjoy it. Some even start drinking tea or coffee. Most people don't take up smoking, because they know the adverse health effects. Most don't participate in sexual perversions, unless you define perversions to include anything other than missionary position with a spouse. There's a lot of variety in what people choose to do with their lives outside of Mormonism, and certainly no exact format.

" you will of course find a number of stories of
people claiming to tell off bishops and stake
presidents in excommunication meetings. there is
no evidence they did or didnt do this. but given
how guilt stricken many of them are in these
stories i suspect it is the total opposite. i
suspect the bishops and stake presidents hit them
where it hurts. and they are now angry internet
bloggers."

Of course, you'd like to assume that exmos don't have the balls to stand up to a bishop or stake president, especially if you're a TBM who can't imagine doing that yourself. Lyndon Lambern recorded his own excommunication for non-belief, and you can listen to the recording yourself on the internet if you search using the EVIL GOOGLE.

" the end result is a bitter now smoker alcoholic
with a mission to kill the church."

Yes, this is what happens to EVERY SINGLE PERSON who leaves the LDS church. Except for the majority who don't end up like that.

" also ive never seen one happy post there. not one
single happy person posting there. not one."

Check out Timothy's What are you drinking? threads! Plenty of happy people there!

"the
irony here is of course some will then profess
other christian religions as the one and
completely overlook the flaws in those in
religions and not even bother to fact check them.
why? they can drink smoke and buy hookers with no
punishment.(no offense intended to other religions
just stating the frame of mind of the people on
exmormon.org)""

Of course, because the only reason people would leave your One True Church is to sin. There's no other possible explanation in your mind. Nothing anyone else says will change your mind. Don't let little details like facts get in your way.

TBMs are brainwashed to believe that if they even read ANY "anti" material, Satan (or Stan as I like to call him) has the power to deceive and lead them astray. This raises a couple of obvious questions in my mind. First, shouldn't gawd be more powerful than Stan? And shouldn't TRUTH always win out when information is studied, tested, and investigated? In other words, shouldn't gawd/the church WANT his TBMs to study everything they can, knowing that TSCC will ALWAYS prove to be true??


Posted by: nowI'mfound
They fear members investigating this site and others like it because they know that there are facts about TSCC [this so called church] that can't be denied. Facts that will plant themselves in the back of any semi-conscious TBMs mind, and eventually grow into genuine doubts. There's no smoke in mirrors here. We are only pointing out what many of us as former TBMs have discovered--the church is NOT true. And all the hiding your head in the sand or ignoring your queasy tummy won't make it so.