Prophets who don't prophesy.

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>baura</p>\n<p>Being a \"prophet,\" in the LDS sense, means being the conduit for God\'s instructions to his people. It doesn\'t necessarily mean predicting the future.</p>\n<p>I cannot recall any time in the entire presidency of Gordon B. Hinckley where he \"spoke prophetically.\" By that I mean when he actually said something had come from God to him to give to the Church. When I brought this point up to my TBM, Institute-director brother he was able to point me to a statement by Ezra Taft Benson where ETB had stated something to the effect that God had prompted him to tell the Church members to read the Book of Mormon. I told my brother that I would count that as \"speaking prophetically.\" But, I noted, during his entire presidency Gordon B. Hinckley never spoke prophetically once. As far as I can see absolutely EVERYTHING that GBH ever said will be easily dismissed by some future apologist as \"well he was clearly speaking as a man.\"</p>\n<p>Can anyone recall any time during his presidency that GBH spoke invoking his prophetic mantle and claiming to give God\'s word to us other than to reiterate established doctrine? Did GBH at any time he was \"The Prophet\" actually give anything to the Church that he claimed had come to him from God? Did he ever actually speak as a prophet?</p>\n<p>Has Thomas S. Monson ever done so?</p>\n<p>Mormonism claims to be different from other churches in having a PROPHET at its head. However the prophets seem to never actually speak as prophets.</p>\n<p>Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 04:27PM by baura.</p>\n<p>kolobian<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>This is usually what I bring up when I\'m bored and visit the mormon.org/chat.</p>\n<p>I ask them what\'s different about their church from other christian churches and they almost always mention they have prophets and modern revelation.</p>\n<p>I ask who is the prophet today and what are some of his prophecies?</p>\n<p>Let the good times roll..</p>\n<p>ablmu65<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>From my limited understanding it has been many many years since we had a prophet who has said \"Thus saith the Lord\" based on their communication with the God head.</p>\n<p>I might be wrong but we haven\'t had a \"Thus saith the lord\" in a very long time.</p>\n<p>baura<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>The closest thing to a \"thus saith the Lord\" in my lifetime was the 1978 \"revelation\" allowing Blacks to have the Priesthood. Even then there was not one actual word of \"the Lord\" quoted, just the assurance that all the big boys were convinced.</p>\n<p>Lucky<br />\nthe most prophetic words that Gordon BS Hinckley ever said</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E22FNolOyhQ\" title=\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E22FNolOyhQ\">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E22FNolOyhQ</a></p>\n<p>Crathes<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>Per ETB, the prophet does not need to say \"thus saith the Lord\" for it to be a prophecy.</p>\n<p>On the other hand, it makes a really easy to claim he was just stating his opinion, or speaking as a man. Total weenie.</p>\n<p>freeman<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>Why would any modern \"Prophet\" prophesy in today\'s PR-conscious world? At a time when all the 15 want is to be considered \"normal\" and \"mainstream\" by the world, why would they jeopordise that by making up a \"prophesy\" with a statistically high chance it would be proven wrong?</p>\n<p>The Prophet must know he is not a proper Prophet. Even if he is a genuine TBM (which I know is debatable and quite unlikely) he must know when he gets the job that he doesn\'t actually know any more than he did before, and God still hasn\'t spoken with him. If he is still a TBM at this point, he will probably feel immense shame and start blaming himself for his imperfections and lack of faith. It must be his fault he doesn\'t have an open channel to God. He will probably stay silent on the matter and avoid honest answers when questioned.</p>\n<p>In other words, whether the Prophet knows it\'s all BS or whether he is a very deluded TBM, his actions will likely be exactly the same! He won\'t receive direct revelation from God, and he will attempt to cover this up rather than draw attention to it with false prophesies.</p>\n<p>nonmo<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>\"The Prophet must know he is not a proper Prophet. Even if he is a genuine TBM (which I know is debatable and quite unlikely) he must know when he gets the job that he doesn\'t actually know any more than he did before, and God still hasn\'t spoken with him.\"</p>\n<p>Sooo...he\'s like the King of England??</p>\n<p>Thread Killer<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>I\'m no bible scholar, but what I believe is a major problem with the president/prophet thing is that, throughout the ancient scriptures, God chooses a prophet when he needs to relay some major juju to his chosen people; it might be hundreds of years between prophet-itis hits. The mormons, on the other hand, always have one hanging around, waiting for the Red Phone to ring.</p>\n<p>In other words, God chooses a prophet when he needs a messenger boy, but the mormons have turned it into a full-time position, so they have to keep up some kind of busy work while waiting for Godot.</p>\n<p>RPackham<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>baura Wrote:<br />\n-------------------------------------------------------<br />\n&gt; The closest thing to a \"thus saith the Lord\" in my<br />\n&gt; lifetime was the 1978 \"revelation\" allowing Blacks<br />\n&gt; to have the Priesthood. Even then there was not<br />\n&gt; one actual word of \"the Lord\" quoted, just the<br />\n&gt; assurance that all the big boys were convinced.</p>\n<p>For the actual text of the revelation, see <a href=\"http://packham.n4m.org/blacks.htm\" title=\"http://packham.n4m.org/blacks.htm\">http://packham.n4m.org/blacks.htm</a></p>\n<p>BE SURE TO READ THE WHOLE THING!</p>\n<p>baura<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>Thread Killer Wrote:<br />\n-------------------------------------------------------<br />\n&gt; what I believe is a<br />\n&gt; major problem with the president/prophet thing is<br />\n&gt; that, throughout the ancient scriptures, God<br />\n&gt; chooses a prophet when . . .</p>\n<p>And in Mormonism, Mormons choose a prophet. Mormons get together and vote and tell God who the prophet is.</p>\n<p>elcid<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>I think the reason why the current LDS leaders do NOT say anything \"prophetic\" is because they could EASILY be found to have made a statement that is disproved by subsequent events, AND in this day and age the statement would likely be recorded and played over and over again.</p>\n<p>In other words, they know they have no special ability. They know it. Let me repeat that...they know they are nothing special.</p>\n<p>It would take balls as big as coconuts to get up in general conference and say....\"I prophesy that this coming spring will not come. Crops worldwide will fail and the members of the church will have to depend on their food storage for sustenance...blah, blah\".</p>\n<p>Won\'t EVER HAPPEN.</p>\n<p>Thread Killer<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.<br />\nExcellent observation baura, I didn\'t even think of that.</p>\n<p>By God, I\'m brilliant! I must have been inspired; the church is true!</p>\n<p>baura<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>I\'m not even talking about predicting any future events. I\'m talking about ANYTHING, absolutely ANYTHING that GBH claimed was given specifically to him by God to relay to the membership. It wouldn\'t take \"balls as big as coconuts\" to say something like, \"the Lord has told me that we need to redouble our efforts in holding Family Home Evening . . .\" But GBH never said anything even that mundane and claimed it was from God. He was a prophet who never prophesied.</p>\n<p>SpongeBob SquareGarments<br />\nThus sayeth the Lord</p>\n<p>The very last President of the Church to prophesy or revelate \"Thus Saith the Lord\" Revelations was Wilford Woodruff (4th President of the Church). Presidents of the Church since his time have not prophesied, seen visions (save a dream by Joseph F. Smith in 1916), nor received any \"Thus Saith the Lord Revelations\".</p>\n<p>redkoolaidmonster<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>I have recently heard many TBMs point to \"The Family: A Proclamation to the World\" as revelation. Which is kind of like pointing to a skateboard and calling it a Ferrari.</p>\n<p>That\'s the best they can come up with?</p>\n<p>scarecrowfromoz<br />\nthe head Profit isn\'t allowed to by himself is he?</p>\n<p>Technically all the top 15 are Profits, but isn\'t there something about how the head Profit with the **approval** of the big 15 is the one who speaks for the church. **Approval** may not be the precise word they use, but it is something like that.</p>\n<p>Does someone have the exact phrase? When was it started?</p>\n<p>I think they started that as a check and balance, so that if some future Profit goes off the deep end, they can either say he was speaking as a man, or if really wacko, they can say he is a fallen Profit and remove him, never to be spoken of again.</p>\n<p>drilldoc<br />\nI remember when the priesthood was<br />\ngiven to all \"worthy male members\". I heard the DL writing it down while it was dictated over the phone. I believe it started out \"the lord has heard our prayers\". So I don\'t know if that is a prophetic utterance, but I would think most members considered it so. We were hanging out at the DL\'s apartment when we heard him get the message. The DL was a cool guy and turned around and said: \"Wow. Makes you kinda want to go out and tract. Nah.\" Anyway, that is the only \"thus saith the lord\" utterance I think I\'ve heard from the so-called prophet in my lifetime of over 50 years.</p>\n<p>sherlock<br />\nRe: Prophets who don\'t prophesy.</p>\n<p>And even that is problematic when you consider those that are born with very indistinguishable genetalia and those whose parents have to chose which sex they will bring up their child since it isn\'t always as clear cut as TSCC would like us to believe.</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1490456317, expire = 1490542717, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:574b23fcb959531b6c2fd75948d99a85' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

baura

Being a "prophet," in the LDS sense, means being the conduit for God's instructions to his people. It doesn't necessarily mean predicting the future.

I cannot recall any time in the entire presidency of Gordon B. Hinckley where he "spoke prophetically." By that I mean when he actually said something had come from God to him to give to the Church. When I brought this point up to my TBM, Institute-director brother he was able to point me to a statement by Ezra Taft Benson where ETB had stated something to the effect that God had prompted him to tell the Church members to read the Book of Mormon. I told my brother that I would count that as "speaking prophetically." But, I noted, during his entire presidency Gordon B. Hinckley never spoke prophetically once. As far as I can see absolutely EVERYTHING that GBH ever said will be easily dismissed by some future apologist as "well he was clearly speaking as a man."

Can anyone recall any time during his presidency that GBH spoke invoking his prophetic mantle and claiming to give God's word to us other than to reiterate established doctrine? Did GBH at any time he was "The Prophet" actually give anything to the Church that he claimed had come to him from God? Did he ever actually speak as a prophet?

Has Thomas S. Monson ever done so?

Mormonism claims to be different from other churches in having a PROPHET at its head. However the prophets seem to never actually speak as prophets.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 04:27PM by baura.

kolobian
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

This is usually what I bring up when I'm bored and visit the mormon.org/chat.

I ask them what's different about their church from other christian churches and they almost always mention they have prophets and modern revelation.

I ask who is the prophet today and what are some of his prophecies?

Let the good times roll..

ablmu65
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

From my limited understanding it has been many many years since we had a prophet who has said "Thus saith the Lord" based on their communication with the God head.

I might be wrong but we haven't had a "Thus saith the lord" in a very long time.

baura
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

The closest thing to a "thus saith the Lord" in my lifetime was the 1978 "revelation" allowing Blacks to have the Priesthood. Even then there was not one actual word of "the Lord" quoted, just the assurance that all the big boys were convinced.

Lucky
the most prophetic words that Gordon BS Hinckley ever said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E22FNolOyhQ

Crathes
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

Per ETB, the prophet does not need to say "thus saith the Lord" for it to be a prophecy.

On the other hand, it makes a really easy to claim he was just stating his opinion, or speaking as a man. Total weenie.

freeman
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

Why would any modern "Prophet" prophesy in today's PR-conscious world? At a time when all the 15 want is to be considered "normal" and "mainstream" by the world, why would they jeopordise that by making up a "prophesy" with a statistically high chance it would be proven wrong?

The Prophet must know he is not a proper Prophet. Even if he is a genuine TBM (which I know is debatable and quite unlikely) he must know when he gets the job that he doesn't actually know any more than he did before, and God still hasn't spoken with him. If he is still a TBM at this point, he will probably feel immense shame and start blaming himself for his imperfections and lack of faith. It must be his fault he doesn't have an open channel to God. He will probably stay silent on the matter and avoid honest answers when questioned.

In other words, whether the Prophet knows it's all BS or whether he is a very deluded TBM, his actions will likely be exactly the same! He won't receive direct revelation from God, and he will attempt to cover this up rather than draw attention to it with false prophesies.

nonmo
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

"The Prophet must know he is not a proper Prophet. Even if he is a genuine TBM (which I know is debatable and quite unlikely) he must know when he gets the job that he doesn't actually know any more than he did before, and God still hasn't spoken with him."

Sooo...he's like the King of England??

Thread Killer
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

I'm no bible scholar, but what I believe is a major problem with the president/prophet thing is that, throughout the ancient scriptures, God chooses a prophet when he needs to relay some major juju to his chosen people; it might be hundreds of years between prophet-itis hits. The mormons, on the other hand, always have one hanging around, waiting for the Red Phone to ring.

In other words, God chooses a prophet when he needs a messenger boy, but the mormons have turned it into a full-time position, so they have to keep up some kind of busy work while waiting for Godot.

RPackham
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The closest thing to a "thus saith the Lord" in my
> lifetime was the 1978 "revelation" allowing Blacks
> to have the Priesthood. Even then there was not
> one actual word of "the Lord" quoted, just the
> assurance that all the big boys were convinced.

For the actual text of the revelation, see http://packham.n4m.org/blacks.htm

BE SURE TO READ THE WHOLE THING!

baura
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

Thread Killer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what I believe is a
> major problem with the president/prophet thing is
> that, throughout the ancient scriptures, God
> chooses a prophet when . . .

And in Mormonism, Mormons choose a prophet. Mormons get together and vote and tell God who the prophet is.

elcid
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

I think the reason why the current LDS leaders do NOT say anything "prophetic" is because they could EASILY be found to have made a statement that is disproved by subsequent events, AND in this day and age the statement would likely be recorded and played over and over again.

In other words, they know they have no special ability. They know it. Let me repeat that...they know they are nothing special.

It would take balls as big as coconuts to get up in general conference and say...."I prophesy that this coming spring will not come. Crops worldwide will fail and the members of the church will have to depend on their food storage for sustenance...blah, blah".

Won't EVER HAPPEN.

Thread Killer
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.
Excellent observation baura, I didn't even think of that.

By God, I'm brilliant! I must have been inspired; the church is true!

baura
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

I'm not even talking about predicting any future events. I'm talking about ANYTHING, absolutely ANYTHING that GBH claimed was given specifically to him by God to relay to the membership. It wouldn't take "balls as big as coconuts" to say something like, "the Lord has told me that we need to redouble our efforts in holding Family Home Evening . . ." But GBH never said anything even that mundane and claimed it was from God. He was a prophet who never prophesied.

SpongeBob SquareGarments
Thus sayeth the Lord

The very last President of the Church to prophesy or revelate "Thus Saith the Lord" Revelations was Wilford Woodruff (4th President of the Church). Presidents of the Church since his time have not prophesied, seen visions (save a dream by Joseph F. Smith in 1916), nor received any "Thus Saith the Lord Revelations".

redkoolaidmonster
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

I have recently heard many TBMs point to "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" as revelation. Which is kind of like pointing to a skateboard and calling it a Ferrari.

That's the best they can come up with?

scarecrowfromoz
the head Profit isn't allowed to by himself is he?

Technically all the top 15 are Profits, but isn't there something about how the head Profit with the **approval** of the big 15 is the one who speaks for the church. **Approval** may not be the precise word they use, but it is something like that.

Does someone have the exact phrase? When was it started?

I think they started that as a check and balance, so that if some future Profit goes off the deep end, they can either say he was speaking as a man, or if really wacko, they can say he is a fallen Profit and remove him, never to be spoken of again.

drilldoc
I remember when the priesthood was
given to all "worthy male members". I heard the DL writing it down while it was dictated over the phone. I believe it started out "the lord has heard our prayers". So I don't know if that is a prophetic utterance, but I would think most members considered it so. We were hanging out at the DL's apartment when we heard him get the message. The DL was a cool guy and turned around and said: "Wow. Makes you kinda want to go out and tract. Nah." Anyway, that is the only "thus saith the lord" utterance I think I've heard from the so-called prophet in my lifetime of over 50 years.

sherlock
Re: Prophets who don't prophesy.

And even that is problematic when you consider those that are born with very indistinguishable genetalia and those whose parents have to chose which sex they will bring up their child since it isn't always as clear cut as TSCC would like us to believe.

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"