Prominent National Jewish leader calls on LDS church to stop dead-dunking Holocaust Jews

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>by steve benson Feb 2012</p>\n<p>My personal friend, national director of the Anti-Defamation League of B\'nai B\'rith Abraham Foxman, explains what must be done to stop this ghoulish Mormon practice of dead-dunking not only Jews but other non-Mormons, as well:</p>\n<p>1) desist from further necro-dunking of Holocaust Jewish victims; and<br />\n2) abandon the Mormon doctrine of necro-dunking altogether.</p>\n<p>\"Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League’s National Director and a Holocaust survivor, explained in a statement why it’s important to stop the practice, USA Today reported. \'Holocaust victims died precisely because they were Jewish,\' he said. \'Listing Jews as \'Christian’ on one of the most researched genealogical sites in the world inadvertently aids and abets denial of the Holocaust.\'”</p>\n<p>(“Mormon church leaders apologize for baptizing Jewish dead,”at: <a href=\"http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120214/mormon-church-apologize-posthumous-baptism-jews-wiesel-romney\" title=\"http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120214/mormon-church-apologize-posthumous-baptism-jews-wiesel-romney\">http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/1...</a>)</p>\n<p>\"\'A lot more needs to be done by the LDS Church to educate its membership about its policy prohibiting names of Holocaust victims to be offered for posthumous baptism,\' Foxman continued. \'Perhaps the ultimate solution would be for the church to revisit its theological position on posthumously baptizing Jews and believers outside the (LDS) Church, just as other religions have reconsidered centuries-old beliefs.\'\"</p>\n<p>(“Mormon Church apologizes for Jewish baptisms for the dead, ” by Joseph Walker, in “Deseret News,” 15 February 2012, at: <a href=\"http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765550827/LDS-Church-apologizes-for-Jewish-baptisms-for-the-dead.html?pg=2\" title=\"http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765550827/LDS-Church-apologizes-for-Jewish-baptisms-for-the-dead.html?pg=2\">http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765550827/LDS-Church-apologizes-for-J...</a>)</p>\n<p>\"\'Holocaust victims’ only crime was that they were Jews. Now [the church] is basically killing them again by eliminating their Jewishness,\' said Anti-Defamation League director Abraham Foxman, who also was part of an interfaith coalition to address the subject. He likens the situation to earlier quarrels between Jews and the Catholic Church over Jewish legitimacy, and says that, like the Catholics, the Mormons will come around and work to smooth their relationship with Jews.</p>\n<p>“\'It’s important for them to know that we’re watching,\' he said. \'That’s how you keep people honest.\'</p>\n<p>“ . . . Foxman . . . agree[s] that the church knows what it is doing, and that any efficacious solution must come from education and messaging within the church.”</p>\n<p>(“Mormons Still Baptizing Dead Jews Despite Agreements to End Practice,” by Allison Yarrow, in “Daily Beast,” 15 February 2012, at:<br />\n<a href=\"http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/mormons-still-baptizing-dead-jews-despite-agreements-to-end-practice.html\" title=\"http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/mormons-still-baptizing-dead-jews-despite-agreements-to-end-practice.html\">http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/mormons-still-baptizing...</a>)</p>\n<p>update Feb 18 2012</p>\n<p>UPDATE: Now They REALLY Know About the Mormon Necro Work Done on, and at the Expense of, Dead Holocaust Jews: What I\'ll say at this point is that appropriate contact has been made new</p>\n<p>. . . with Jewish leaders at important levels who are now in possession of more critical working information and are in a position to act as, and when, they see fit.</p>\n<p>As I indicated would be the intent, the issues were laid out in detail today in a returned-call personal phone conversation, which proceeded along the following lines, in terms of information exchange.</p>\n<p>What I relayed:</p>\n<p>--The Mormon Church, through its necro work, not only dead-dunks Jewish Holocaust victims.</p>\n<p>It also:</p>\n<p>--Confirms dead Jewish Holocaust victims as members of the Mormon church;</p>\n<p>--Seals dead Jewish Holocaust victims, in various Mormon temple rituals, to the Mormon church and to Mormon members themselves through secret oaths of allegiance and handshakes engaged in by proxy temple workers dressed in Masonic costumes;</p>\n<p>--Performs proxy necro ceremonies for dead Jewish Holocaust victims, the details of which the Mormon church does not talk about.</p>\n<p>--Invades the tribes of ancient Israel to which these dead Jewish Holocaust victims belong (through patriarchal blessings pronounced on Mormon church members where Mormons are notified of the ancient tribe of Israel to which they themselves are attached); with this being done by Mormons by \"adopting\" themselves, through covenant, into the Jewish bloodline; and then</p>\n<p>--Extinguishes the very Jewish identity of dead Holocaust Jewish victims by transforming these Nazi-slaughtered Jews, who died for their faith, into Mormons.<br />\n_____</p>\n<p>Other points covered:</p>\n<p>--Information has been relayed that (despite Mormon church claims that it cannot effectively control local church membmers who are necro-dunking dead Holocaust Jewish victims), the Mormon church is definitely able to see and review the extracted names of dead Jewish Holocaust victims whose names have been submitted for--and ultimately processed through--its necro-dunking rituals.</p>\n<p>--Explanation has been given that the Mormon church has only now taken action against church members involved in the dead-dunking of Simon Wiesenthal\'s parents because the Mormon church has been seriously and publicly embarrassed by the episode--although the Mormon church has known for years that dead Jewish Holocaust victims have continued to be necro-dunked,</p>\n<p>--Reference has been provided to public news reports exhibiting screenprints of Mormon church computer records showing the names, the dead-dunking dates, the dead-dunked membership confirmations and notices of completion of necro work done on dead Jews who have been processed into Mormon membership ranks via LDS proxy rituals.</p>\n<p>--Emphasis has been made of how the Mormon church has serious financial incentive to continue performing its dead-dunking rituals, due to the fact that Mormons who wish to be \"families forever\" pay a required temple entrance fee of 10% of their income to attend and work in Mormon temples for not only the dead, but for their own personal salvation.</p>\n<p>--Note has been made that Mormons fervently do necro-dunking for dead Jewish Holocaust victims because they believe that dead Jewish Holocaust victims are anxiously waiting to have it done for them.</p>\n<p>--The point has been accentuated that Mormon necro-work is what keeps Mormon temples operating and, indeed, if it was not for that necro work (which comprises the vast majority of what Mormons busy themselves with doing in their temples), there would be very little for Mormons to do in temples.</p>\n<p>--Explanation has been offered as to how the Mormon church builds temples in carefully demographically-analyzed areas, where temple construction is based on Mormon population density and projected Mormon population growth so that Mormon church earnings can be maximized through charging for temple entry and participation.<br />\n_____</p>\n<p>The response to these points included:</p>\n<p>--The Mormon church has got dead Jewish Holocaust victims coming and going.</p>\n<p>--The Mormon church has promised in several meetings with Jewish leaders to stop the necro-dunking of dead Holocaust Jewish victims but has not kept its promises.</p>\n<p>--The Mormon church desires acceptance by larger society but is not willing to pay the price necessary for that acceptance by changing and ceasing its offensive necro-work doctrines or practices.</p>\n<p>--the Mormon church could, if it genuinely wanted to, stop in short order its offensive practice of necro-dunking dead Jewish Holocaust victims.</p>\n<p>--Disappointed and frustrated Jewish representatives will be soon meeting. yet again, with Mormon church leaders to re-convey their objections, grievances and demands.<br />\n_____</p>\n<p>In the meantime, the channel of communication remains open.</p>\n<hr />\nFrom the files of \"On This Day in Mormon History\" (posted on RfM by \"baura\") . . . new\n<p>June 18, 1933 - Nazi Party newspaper in Berlin publishes \"Juden und Mormonen,\" which criticizes Germans for belonging to LDS church which has \"always been very friendly with Jews.\"</p>\n<p>Dec 9, 1933 - Church Section article \"Mormonism in The New Germany,\" enthusiastically emphasizes parallels \"between the LDS Church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists.\" First, Nazis have introduced \"Fast Sunday.\" Second, \"it is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the \'Word of Wisdom.\'\" Finally, \"due to the importance given to the racial question by Nazis and the almost necessity of proving that one\'s grandmother was not Jewess,\" there no longer is resistance against genealogical research by German Mormons who \"now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.\"</p>\n<p>Jan 25, 1936 - CHURCH SECTION photograph of LDS basketball team in Germany giving \"Sieg Heil\" salute of Nazi Party.</p>\n<p>Nov 23, 1938 - First Mormon victim of Nazi Holocaust, Egon Engelbert Weiss in Vienna, Austria (recently annexed to Nazi Germany), writes desperate letters to eight returned missionaries in Utah and Idaho and to First Presidency; \"Conditions here are terrible for us Jewish people.\" He asks if Presidency can make necessary affidavit to enable his family to escape to America, signing letter \"your brother in the Gospel.\"</p>\n<p>Jan 27, 1939 - Counselors J. Reuben Clark and David O. McKay write to Jewish non-Mormon who appeals for First Presidency help to escape Nazi regime: \"We have so many requests of this sort from various persons, including members of the Church, that we have found it necessary to ask to be excused from making the required guarantee.\" Letter suggests that he contact American Jewish organizations.</p>\n<p>Apr 14, 1939 - An article by West German Mission President Alfred C. Rees entitled \"In the Land of the Mormons\" appears in a special issue of the Nazi Party organ DER VOLKISCHE BEOBATCHTER. In the Editor\'s Preface to the article, President Rees is called \"the representative of the Church in Germany,\" who \"paints for our readers a portrait of Mormonism today, a church which views the New Germany with sympathy and friendship.\" Whether President Rees originally wrote the article in German or not, the language of the piece abounds in such loaded terms as Volk and Rasse (race); and a picture of Brigham Young bears the caption, \"Fuhrer der historischen Mormonenpioniere.\" disturbing in hindsight is the way President Rees blatantly parallels Mormonism with Nazism. As Rees warms to his topic, Mormonism begins to sound like a fulfillment of Nazi teachings, providing \"the practical realization of the German ideal: \'the common good takes precedence over the individual good.\' \" Rees concluded by assuring his readers that \"Mormons are people who put this healthy doctrine into action.\"</p>\n<p>Apr 24, 1939 - First Counselor J. Reuben Clark requests U.S. department of State to assist immigration of two Mormons: \"She and her husband are Aryan natives and nationals of Switzerland.\" In contrast, Clark privately urges State Department not to help Jewish children to leave Nazi Germany if their parents are trying to send them to United States.</p>\n<p>July 1, 1939 - Nazi Gestapo arrests two American LDS missionaries in Czechoslovakia and put them and two other missionaries into prison. Not released until Aug. 23.</p>\n<p>June 24, 1941 - Counselor J. Reuben Clark advises Mormon \"against your assuming as truth the most of the criticism you see leveled against Hitler and his regime in Germany. I visited Germany twice within the last half-dozen years . . . Hitler is undoubtedly bad from our American point of view, but I think the Germans like him.\" Because of such statements, federal intelligence agencies investigate Clark in Utah as possible pro-Nazi subversive.</p>\n<p>Feb 5, 1942 - LDS teenager, Helmuth Heubner, Rudi Wobbe, and Karl-Heinze Schnibbe is arrested in Hamburg for distributing anti-Nazi leaflets. Ten days later Heubner\'s branch president (who had once put a sign saying \"Jews not allowed to enter\" over the chapel door and also allowed broadcasts of Hitler to be part of church services) writes \"Excommunicated\" on Heubner\'s records. Seventeen-year-old Heubner, the \"ringleader\" is beheaded by the Nazis on October 27. His membership is later reinstated and his excommunication is termed a \"mistake.\" Two teenage co-conspirators of Heubner, Rudi Wobbe and Karl-Heinze Schnibbe are both sent to labor camps. They both emigrate to the United States after the war. On January 8, 1985, Heubner\'s sixtieth birthday, they return to Hamburg where they, are treated as heros by the government of Hamburg. They place a wreath at the site of Heubner\'s execution. Says Wobbe, \"After forty years, to come back to a city that had actually put us away in concentration camps and prisons ... now to be honored and taken around as guests of the city with the members of the government . . . it was surprising-even a bit uncomfortable.\"</p>\n<p>Feb 15, 1942 - In Hamburg, Germany, Branch President Arnold Zollner writes \"Ex-communicated\" on 17-year-old Helmuth Hubener\'s membership record. Hubener had been arrested 10 days previously for distributing anti-Nazi propaganda. Zollner had previously posted \"JUDEN IST DER EINTRITT VERBOTEN!\" (Jews not allowed to enter.) on the door of the branch meeting-house and would bring his radio to church whenever Hitler or Goebbels were scheduled to speak. Heubner is beheaded by the Nazis on October 27, 1942. On November 11, 1946, District President Otto Berndt,and the new mission president, Max Zimmer, write \"excommunication done by mistake\" on Hubener\'s membership record. Later, Zimmer\'s successor, Jean Wunderlich, notifies the Salt Lake leadership of the affair, and on 24 January 24, 1948, the First Presidency orderes a similar notation placed on the membership record.</p>\n<p>Feb 5, 1949 - First Counselor J. Reuben Clark recommends anti-semitic PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION to Ernest L. Wilkinson, soon to be president of Brigham Young University. In Dec. 1957 Clark makes similar recommendation to Apostle Ezra Taft Benson, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture. This may be reason Benson organizes secret surveillance of employees (especially Jews) in U.S. Department of Agriculture.</p>\n<p>kimball<br />\nRe: Prominent nat\'l Jewish leader calls on LDS church to stop dead-dunking Holocaust Jews<br />\n\"\'Holocaust victims died precisely because they were Jewish,\' he said. \'Listing Jews as \'Christian’ on one of the most researched genealogical sites in the world inadvertently aids and abets denial of the Holocaust.\'\"</p>\n<p>Is this guy legit? They didn\'t die because of their jewish RELIGIOUS beliefs. They died because of their jewish DNA. Anyone knows that. I\'m pretty sure that the LDS family search website doesn\'t change their genetic make-up, and I\'m pretty sure that jews don\'t think of the holocaust victims as martyrs for their religion.</p>\n<p>If anything, this guy should only ask for the label of whether or not baptisms have been done to be removed from the website. That\'s a reasonable request. He should understand that the LDS church doesn\'t believe that everyone who has been baptized necessarily believes or is even affiliated with mormonism. The LDS stance is that now they have the chance should they so desire. I\'ve gotten that answer from every single mormon I\'ve ever known and have talked to about it. The only way for the dead person\'s affiliation to change is if they want it to, and it\'s perfectly acceptable for them to be allowed to determine their own affiliation. If mormonism is presenting or hinting otherwise, it should stop immediately.</p>\n<p>Also reasonable is the request to not have a particular person or group of people baptized if your claim to them is better than mormonisms (ie. if they have more direct descendants asking for it not to be done than descendants pushing for it), or if the person specifically asked for it not to be done before they died.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>rt<br />\nRe: Prominent nat\'l Jewish leader calls on LDS church to stop dead-dunking Holocaust Jews<br />\n\"Perhaps the ultimate solution would be for the church to revisit its theological position on posthumously baptizing Jews and believers outside the (LDS) Church, just as other religions have reconsidered centuries-old beliefs.\'\"</p>\n<p>The ultimate solution? You\'d think Mr. Foxman would think twice before using such language. Mormon temple rituals may be ridiculous but to attempt to tell a religion what to believe and what to abandon is just plain over the top nonsense.</p>\n<p>Mr. Foxman has every right to call the Mormons on their breach of their agreement with the US Jewish community but let\'s not get carried away here.</p>\n<hr />\ndeconstructor<br />\nMormon Church leaders insist everyone must be baptized Mormon<br />\nPresident Boyd K. Packer from General Conference:\n<p>\"There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them?\"</p>\n<p>\"That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained?\"</p>\n<p>\"When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question.\"</p>\n<p>\"If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized.\"</p>\n<p>\"Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved.\"</p>\n<p>\"We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it.\"</p>\n<p>\"Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances.\"</p>\n<p>\"“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth.\"</p>\n<p>\"And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”\"</p>\n<p>\"And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so.\"</p>\n<p>\"“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”\"</p>\n<p>\"To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”\"</p>\n<p>\"I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.\"</p>\n<p>- President Boyd K. Packer, \"The Redemption of the Dead\" Churchwide General Conference, October 5, 1975, Church Ensign Magazine, Nov. 1975, page 97</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1975.htm/ensign%20november%201975.htm/the%20redemption%20of%20the%20dead.htm\" title=\"http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1975.htm/ensign%20november%201975.htm/the%20redemption%20of%20the%20dead.htm\">http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1975.htm/ensign%...</a></p>\n<hr />\ndeconstructor<br />\nMonson says \"none shall be denied\" baptism for the dead.<br />\nThomas S. Monson:\n<p>\"And for those who have died without a knowledge of the truth, a way has been provided. Sacred ordinances can be performed by the faithful living for the waiting dead. Houses of the Lord known as temples dot the land. As Elijah the prophet testified, the hearts of the fathers have been turned to the children, and the children to the fathers. (D&amp;C 110: 14–15.) None shall be denied. All shall have opportunity for eternal blessings.<br />\n- Elder Thomas S. Monson, \"An Invitation to Exaltation\" broadcast by Satellite during an church-wide investigator’s fireside, Salt Lake City, 1 March 1984. Also “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Church Ensign Magazine, July 1984, page 69</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20july%201984%20.htm/an%20invitation%20to%20exaltation.htm\" title=\"http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20july%201984%20.htm/an%20invitation%20to%20exaltation.htm\">http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%...</a></p>\n<hr />\nSmiling Dog<br />\nRe: Monson says \"none shall be denied\" baptism for the dead.<br />\nI wonder if mormons stop to think that their leaders fear man over God.\n<hr />\nsteve benson<br />\nYes, he\'s legit. He\'s a Holocaust survivor himself.\n<hr />\n<p>kimball<br />\nThat brings a tear to my eye. Which concentration camp was he sent to?<br />\nAnd when you\'re done answering that question, how about address my point about religious versus genetic jews.</p>\n<p>By the way, I see that he was baptized catholic when he was little. Does he consider that act a disgrace towards holocaust survivors?</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nNo, it doesn\'t bring a tear to your eye. Nice try. Just in case you actually do care, Abe was rescued from the Nazis as an infant . . .<br />\nAbe was born to Polish-Jewish parents (Helen and Joseph Foxman) in Russian-occupied Poland in 1940 and was their only son.</p>\n<p>He was saved from Nazi extermination by his Polish Catholic nursemaid, Bronislawa Kurpi, to whom Abe was given by his parents when the Nazis ordered them to enter a ghetto in Nazi-occupied Poland.</p>\n<p>Kurpi had Abe baptized a Catholic under the name of Henryk Stanislaw Kurpi. She raised him as a Catholic through the end of WW II in Vilnius, Poland. Abe was eventually reunited with his parents (who survived the war, although 14 of Abe\'s family members did not). He immigrated to America with his mother and father in 1950.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>tbrown9163<br />\nRe: A contradiction that I even held when I was a Mish and TBM<br />\nStatements in the discussions that I used as a Mish (paraphrased)</p>\n<p>We needed to come from the preexistence to gain a physical body so we could be baptized, married etc. (not possible without it)</p>\n<p>Baptism is a commandment</p>\n<p>we are responsible for our own actions/keeping commandments, not for someone elses</p>\n<p>We are given no commandment that we cannot keep</p>\n<p>Logical:</p>\n<p>Dead people no longer have a physical body. duh</p>\n<p>Yet, somehow they are still held to the same commandment that they had no way to keep?</p>\n<p>I was a mish and TBM so many years ago, I hardly think about these things anymore but when I do, I realize how bizarre they were.</p>\n<p>Until....I read the book \'Thought Contagion\' which described how memes (belief systems) invent ways of keeping their \'faithful\' busy with endless faith promoting but usually useless tasks as a sort of defense mechanism. Then it made sense why it is done...think of the time and money involved in this!</p>\n<hr />\n<p>steve benson<br />\nYou asked for historical background on Foxman and I provided it.</p>\n<p>suggestions from \"Flat Lander\" .</p>\n<p>Re: Talked today with an official of the Anti-Defamation League about the necro-dunking of Simon Wiesenthal\'s parents. It\'s essentially the straw that\'s broken the camel\'s back . .</p>\n<p>Steve,<br />\nI would suggest that when you speak with Mr. Foxman again you also point out that there is ALWAYS a CONFIRMATION step performed with each baptism in which two Mormon priests holding the \"higher priesthood\" confirms the deceased person is in fact a member of CoJCoLdS, and a third holder of the higher priesthood officially records this confirmation of membership on the rolls of the temple.</p>\n<p>I also think you should share at least some of what happens in the Endowment, namely:</p>\n<p>1. The proxy (on behalf of the deceased Holocaust victim) covenants that he will do all in his power for the building of CoJCoLdS, and makes other similar covenants in favor of CoJCoLdS. Until 1990 these covenants were made under threat of death, including ritualistic gestures symbolizing throat slitting, disembowelment, etc.</p>\n<p>2. The proxy (on behalf of the deceased Holocaust victim) learns secret handshakes and passwords without which the deceased Holocaust victim cannot enter heaven.</p>\n<p>3. The proxy (on behalf of the deceased Holocaust victim) is given a New Name.</p>\n<p>etc.</p>\n<p>You might also wish to point out that there are also the Initiatory ordinances where the proxy is \"washed\" on behalf of the deceased holocaust victim, because the deceased holocaust victim is presumed to be \"unclean in the eyes of God.\"</p>\n<p>During that conversation, I was informed that the national director of the ADL, Abraham Foxman, is well-versed on the Mormon doctrine of ritualized dead-dunking and that the Wiesenthal episode has brought the issue into starker focus for the ADL. (Abe has demanded that the practice stop, given that its continuance amounts to a second murder of the Jewish identity of Jewish Holocaust victims. He has also notified the Mormon church that continual ADL monitoring of the church will help, he hopes, keep it from future breaking of the its promise to discontinue the dead-dunking of exterminated Jews. He has asked the Mormon church to implement more stringent internal controls on this dead-dunking practice. He has also called for the Mormon church to consider abandoning its practice of dead-dunking not only Jews but other non-Mormons).</p>\n<p>I informed the ADL official with whom I spoke that Mormons not only dead-dunk Jewish victims of the Holocaust, they actually regard themselves to be adopted into the covenant of the ancient Jewish bloodline.</p>\n<p>I told him that Mormons are given patriarchal blessings, where the name of the tribe of Israel to which the Mormon recipient of this blessing has supposed Mormon-asserted linkage is pronounced upon the head of the recipient.</p>\n<p>The official said he was not aware of that.</p>\n<p>I responded that what Mormons do, in effect, is to invade Jewish genealogical tribes, declare these tribes as their own, then extinguish the Jewishness of actual Jews via necro-dunking them into the Mormon church.</p>\n<p>He was not pleased to hear that news.</p>\n<p>I plan on talking with Abe Foxman about this in some detail, when it is convenient for him to do so (we have known each other since the 1980s when I joined him on an ADL trip to Israel, and most recently met up with him last October when he came through Phoenix).</p>\n<p>This is not going away.</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1409622581, expire = 1409708981, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '1:b574b8b22512e4befcc9baccf5501f71' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

by steve benson Feb 2012

My personal friend, national director of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith Abraham Foxman, explains what must be done to stop this ghoulish Mormon practice of dead-dunking not only Jews but other non-Mormons, as well:

1) desist from further necro-dunking of Holocaust Jewish victims; and
2) abandon the Mormon doctrine of necro-dunking altogether.

"Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League’s National Director and a Holocaust survivor, explained in a statement why it’s important to stop the practice, USA Today reported. 'Holocaust victims died precisely because they were Jewish,' he said. 'Listing Jews as 'Christian’ on one of the most researched genealogical sites in the world inadvertently aids and abets denial of the Holocaust.'”

(“Mormon church leaders apologize for baptizing Jewish dead,”at: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/1...)

"'A lot more needs to be done by the LDS Church to educate its membership about its policy prohibiting names of Holocaust victims to be offered for posthumous baptism,' Foxman continued. 'Perhaps the ultimate solution would be for the church to revisit its theological position on posthumously baptizing Jews and believers outside the (LDS) Church, just as other religions have reconsidered centuries-old beliefs.'"

(“Mormon Church apologizes for Jewish baptisms for the dead, ” by Joseph Walker, in “Deseret News,” 15 February 2012, at: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765550827/LDS-Church-apologizes-for-J...)

"'Holocaust victims’ only crime was that they were Jews. Now [the church] is basically killing them again by eliminating their Jewishness,' said Anti-Defamation League director Abraham Foxman, who also was part of an interfaith coalition to address the subject. He likens the situation to earlier quarrels between Jews and the Catholic Church over Jewish legitimacy, and says that, like the Catholics, the Mormons will come around and work to smooth their relationship with Jews.

“'It’s important for them to know that we’re watching,' he said. 'That’s how you keep people honest.'

“ . . . Foxman . . . agree[s] that the church knows what it is doing, and that any efficacious solution must come from education and messaging within the church.”

(“Mormons Still Baptizing Dead Jews Despite Agreements to End Practice,” by Allison Yarrow, in “Daily Beast,” 15 February 2012, at:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/mormons-still-baptizing...)

update Feb 18 2012

UPDATE: Now They REALLY Know About the Mormon Necro Work Done on, and at the Expense of, Dead Holocaust Jews: What I'll say at this point is that appropriate contact has been made new

. . . with Jewish leaders at important levels who are now in possession of more critical working information and are in a position to act as, and when, they see fit.

As I indicated would be the intent, the issues were laid out in detail today in a returned-call personal phone conversation, which proceeded along the following lines, in terms of information exchange.

What I relayed:

--The Mormon Church, through its necro work, not only dead-dunks Jewish Holocaust victims.

It also:

--Confirms dead Jewish Holocaust victims as members of the Mormon church;

--Seals dead Jewish Holocaust victims, in various Mormon temple rituals, to the Mormon church and to Mormon members themselves through secret oaths of allegiance and handshakes engaged in by proxy temple workers dressed in Masonic costumes;

--Performs proxy necro ceremonies for dead Jewish Holocaust victims, the details of which the Mormon church does not talk about.

--Invades the tribes of ancient Israel to which these dead Jewish Holocaust victims belong (through patriarchal blessings pronounced on Mormon church members where Mormons are notified of the ancient tribe of Israel to which they themselves are attached); with this being done by Mormons by "adopting" themselves, through covenant, into the Jewish bloodline; and then

--Extinguishes the very Jewish identity of dead Holocaust Jewish victims by transforming these Nazi-slaughtered Jews, who died for their faith, into Mormons.
_____

Other points covered:

--Information has been relayed that (despite Mormon church claims that it cannot effectively control local church membmers who are necro-dunking dead Holocaust Jewish victims), the Mormon church is definitely able to see and review the extracted names of dead Jewish Holocaust victims whose names have been submitted for--and ultimately processed through--its necro-dunking rituals.

--Explanation has been given that the Mormon church has only now taken action against church members involved in the dead-dunking of Simon Wiesenthal's parents because the Mormon church has been seriously and publicly embarrassed by the episode--although the Mormon church has known for years that dead Jewish Holocaust victims have continued to be necro-dunked,

--Reference has been provided to public news reports exhibiting screenprints of Mormon church computer records showing the names, the dead-dunking dates, the dead-dunked membership confirmations and notices of completion of necro work done on dead Jews who have been processed into Mormon membership ranks via LDS proxy rituals.

--Emphasis has been made of how the Mormon church has serious financial incentive to continue performing its dead-dunking rituals, due to the fact that Mormons who wish to be "families forever" pay a required temple entrance fee of 10% of their income to attend and work in Mormon temples for not only the dead, but for their own personal salvation.

--Note has been made that Mormons fervently do necro-dunking for dead Jewish Holocaust victims because they believe that dead Jewish Holocaust victims are anxiously waiting to have it done for them.

--The point has been accentuated that Mormon necro-work is what keeps Mormon temples operating and, indeed, if it was not for that necro work (which comprises the vast majority of what Mormons busy themselves with doing in their temples), there would be very little for Mormons to do in temples.

--Explanation has been offered as to how the Mormon church builds temples in carefully demographically-analyzed areas, where temple construction is based on Mormon population density and projected Mormon population growth so that Mormon church earnings can be maximized through charging for temple entry and participation.
_____

The response to these points included:

--The Mormon church has got dead Jewish Holocaust victims coming and going.

--The Mormon church has promised in several meetings with Jewish leaders to stop the necro-dunking of dead Holocaust Jewish victims but has not kept its promises.

--The Mormon church desires acceptance by larger society but is not willing to pay the price necessary for that acceptance by changing and ceasing its offensive necro-work doctrines or practices.

--the Mormon church could, if it genuinely wanted to, stop in short order its offensive practice of necro-dunking dead Jewish Holocaust victims.

--Disappointed and frustrated Jewish representatives will be soon meeting. yet again, with Mormon church leaders to re-convey their objections, grievances and demands.
_____

In the meantime, the channel of communication remains open.


From the files of "On This Day in Mormon History" (posted on RfM by "baura") . . . new

June 18, 1933 - Nazi Party newspaper in Berlin publishes "Juden und Mormonen," which criticizes Germans for belonging to LDS church which has "always been very friendly with Jews."

Dec 9, 1933 - Church Section article "Mormonism in The New Germany," enthusiastically emphasizes parallels "between the LDS Church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists." First, Nazis have introduced "Fast Sunday." Second, "it is a very well known fact that Hitler observes a form of living which Mormons term the 'Word of Wisdom.'" Finally, "due to the importance given to the racial question by Nazis and the almost necessity of proving that one's grandmother was not Jewess," there no longer is resistance against genealogical research by German Mormons who "now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism."

Jan 25, 1936 - CHURCH SECTION photograph of LDS basketball team in Germany giving "Sieg Heil" salute of Nazi Party.

Nov 23, 1938 - First Mormon victim of Nazi Holocaust, Egon Engelbert Weiss in Vienna, Austria (recently annexed to Nazi Germany), writes desperate letters to eight returned missionaries in Utah and Idaho and to First Presidency; "Conditions here are terrible for us Jewish people." He asks if Presidency can make necessary affidavit to enable his family to escape to America, signing letter "your brother in the Gospel."

Jan 27, 1939 - Counselors J. Reuben Clark and David O. McKay write to Jewish non-Mormon who appeals for First Presidency help to escape Nazi regime: "We have so many requests of this sort from various persons, including members of the Church, that we have found it necessary to ask to be excused from making the required guarantee." Letter suggests that he contact American Jewish organizations.

Apr 14, 1939 - An article by West German Mission President Alfred C. Rees entitled "In the Land of the Mormons" appears in a special issue of the Nazi Party organ DER VOLKISCHE BEOBATCHTER. In the Editor's Preface to the article, President Rees is called "the representative of the Church in Germany," who "paints for our readers a portrait of Mormonism today, a church which views the New Germany with sympathy and friendship." Whether President Rees originally wrote the article in German or not, the language of the piece abounds in such loaded terms as Volk and Rasse (race); and a picture of Brigham Young bears the caption, "Fuhrer der historischen Mormonenpioniere." disturbing in hindsight is the way President Rees blatantly parallels Mormonism with Nazism. As Rees warms to his topic, Mormonism begins to sound like a fulfillment of Nazi teachings, providing "the practical realization of the German ideal: 'the common good takes precedence over the individual good.' " Rees concluded by assuring his readers that "Mormons are people who put this healthy doctrine into action."

Apr 24, 1939 - First Counselor J. Reuben Clark requests U.S. department of State to assist immigration of two Mormons: "She and her husband are Aryan natives and nationals of Switzerland." In contrast, Clark privately urges State Department not to help Jewish children to leave Nazi Germany if their parents are trying to send them to United States.

July 1, 1939 - Nazi Gestapo arrests two American LDS missionaries in Czechoslovakia and put them and two other missionaries into prison. Not released until Aug. 23.

June 24, 1941 - Counselor J. Reuben Clark advises Mormon "against your assuming as truth the most of the criticism you see leveled against Hitler and his regime in Germany. I visited Germany twice within the last half-dozen years . . . Hitler is undoubtedly bad from our American point of view, but I think the Germans like him." Because of such statements, federal intelligence agencies investigate Clark in Utah as possible pro-Nazi subversive.

Feb 5, 1942 - LDS teenager, Helmuth Heubner, Rudi Wobbe, and Karl-Heinze Schnibbe is arrested in Hamburg for distributing anti-Nazi leaflets. Ten days later Heubner's branch president (who had once put a sign saying "Jews not allowed to enter" over the chapel door and also allowed broadcasts of Hitler to be part of church services) writes "Excommunicated" on Heubner's records. Seventeen-year-old Heubner, the "ringleader" is beheaded by the Nazis on October 27. His membership is later reinstated and his excommunication is termed a "mistake." Two teenage co-conspirators of Heubner, Rudi Wobbe and Karl-Heinze Schnibbe are both sent to labor camps. They both emigrate to the United States after the war. On January 8, 1985, Heubner's sixtieth birthday, they return to Hamburg where they, are treated as heros by the government of Hamburg. They place a wreath at the site of Heubner's execution. Says Wobbe, "After forty years, to come back to a city that had actually put us away in concentration camps and prisons ... now to be honored and taken around as guests of the city with the members of the government . . . it was surprising-even a bit uncomfortable."

Feb 15, 1942 - In Hamburg, Germany, Branch President Arnold Zollner writes "Ex-communicated" on 17-year-old Helmuth Hubener's membership record. Hubener had been arrested 10 days previously for distributing anti-Nazi propaganda. Zollner had previously posted "JUDEN IST DER EINTRITT VERBOTEN!" (Jews not allowed to enter.) on the door of the branch meeting-house and would bring his radio to church whenever Hitler or Goebbels were scheduled to speak. Heubner is beheaded by the Nazis on October 27, 1942. On November 11, 1946, District President Otto Berndt,and the new mission president, Max Zimmer, write "excommunication done by mistake" on Hubener's membership record. Later, Zimmer's successor, Jean Wunderlich, notifies the Salt Lake leadership of the affair, and on 24 January 24, 1948, the First Presidency orderes a similar notation placed on the membership record.

Feb 5, 1949 - First Counselor J. Reuben Clark recommends anti-semitic PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION to Ernest L. Wilkinson, soon to be president of Brigham Young University. In Dec. 1957 Clark makes similar recommendation to Apostle Ezra Taft Benson, U.S. Secretary of Agriculture. This may be reason Benson organizes secret surveillance of employees (especially Jews) in U.S. Department of Agriculture.

kimball
Re: Prominent nat'l Jewish leader calls on LDS church to stop dead-dunking Holocaust Jews
"'Holocaust victims died precisely because they were Jewish,' he said. 'Listing Jews as 'Christian’ on one of the most researched genealogical sites in the world inadvertently aids and abets denial of the Holocaust.'"

Is this guy legit? They didn't die because of their jewish RELIGIOUS beliefs. They died because of their jewish DNA. Anyone knows that. I'm pretty sure that the LDS family search website doesn't change their genetic make-up, and I'm pretty sure that jews don't think of the holocaust victims as martyrs for their religion.

If anything, this guy should only ask for the label of whether or not baptisms have been done to be removed from the website. That's a reasonable request. He should understand that the LDS church doesn't believe that everyone who has been baptized necessarily believes or is even affiliated with mormonism. The LDS stance is that now they have the chance should they so desire. I've gotten that answer from every single mormon I've ever known and have talked to about it. The only way for the dead person's affiliation to change is if they want it to, and it's perfectly acceptable for them to be allowed to determine their own affiliation. If mormonism is presenting or hinting otherwise, it should stop immediately.

Also reasonable is the request to not have a particular person or group of people baptized if your claim to them is better than mormonisms (ie. if they have more direct descendants asking for it not to be done than descendants pushing for it), or if the person specifically asked for it not to be done before they died.


rt
Re: Prominent nat'l Jewish leader calls on LDS church to stop dead-dunking Holocaust Jews
"Perhaps the ultimate solution would be for the church to revisit its theological position on posthumously baptizing Jews and believers outside the (LDS) Church, just as other religions have reconsidered centuries-old beliefs.'"

The ultimate solution? You'd think Mr. Foxman would think twice before using such language. Mormon temple rituals may be ridiculous but to attempt to tell a religion what to believe and what to abandon is just plain over the top nonsense.

Mr. Foxman has every right to call the Mormons on their breach of their agreement with the US Jewish community but let's not get carried away here.


deconstructor
Mormon Church leaders insist everyone must be baptized Mormon
President Boyd K. Packer from General Conference:

"There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them?"

"That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained?"

"When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question."

"If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized."

"Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved."

"We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it."

"Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances."

"“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth."

"And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”"

"And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so."

"“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”"

"To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”"

"I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen."

- President Boyd K. Packer, "The Redemption of the Dead" Churchwide General Conference, October 5, 1975, Church Ensign Magazine, Nov. 1975, page 97

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1975.htm/ensign%...


deconstructor
Monson says "none shall be denied" baptism for the dead.
Thomas S. Monson:

"And for those who have died without a knowledge of the truth, a way has been provided. Sacred ordinances can be performed by the faithful living for the waiting dead. Houses of the Lord known as temples dot the land. As Elijah the prophet testified, the hearts of the fathers have been turned to the children, and the children to the fathers. (D&C 110: 14–15.) None shall be denied. All shall have opportunity for eternal blessings.
- Elder Thomas S. Monson, "An Invitation to Exaltation" broadcast by Satellite during an church-wide investigator’s fireside, Salt Lake City, 1 March 1984. Also “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Church Ensign Magazine, July 1984, page 69

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%...


Smiling Dog
Re: Monson says "none shall be denied" baptism for the dead.
I wonder if mormons stop to think that their leaders fear man over God.
steve benson
Yes, he's legit. He's a Holocaust survivor himself.

kimball
That brings a tear to my eye. Which concentration camp was he sent to?
And when you're done answering that question, how about address my point about religious versus genetic jews.

By the way, I see that he was baptized catholic when he was little. Does he consider that act a disgrace towards holocaust survivors?


steve benson
No, it doesn't bring a tear to your eye. Nice try. Just in case you actually do care, Abe was rescued from the Nazis as an infant . . .
Abe was born to Polish-Jewish parents (Helen and Joseph Foxman) in Russian-occupied Poland in 1940 and was their only son.

He was saved from Nazi extermination by his Polish Catholic nursemaid, Bronislawa Kurpi, to whom Abe was given by his parents when the Nazis ordered them to enter a ghetto in Nazi-occupied Poland.

Kurpi had Abe baptized a Catholic under the name of Henryk Stanislaw Kurpi. She raised him as a Catholic through the end of WW II in Vilnius, Poland. Abe was eventually reunited with his parents (who survived the war, although 14 of Abe's family members did not). He immigrated to America with his mother and father in 1950.


tbrown9163
Re: A contradiction that I even held when I was a Mish and TBM
Statements in the discussions that I used as a Mish (paraphrased)

We needed to come from the preexistence to gain a physical body so we could be baptized, married etc. (not possible without it)

Baptism is a commandment

we are responsible for our own actions/keeping commandments, not for someone elses

We are given no commandment that we cannot keep

Logical:

Dead people no longer have a physical body. duh

Yet, somehow they are still held to the same commandment that they had no way to keep?

I was a mish and TBM so many years ago, I hardly think about these things anymore but when I do, I realize how bizarre they were.

Until....I read the book 'Thought Contagion' which described how memes (belief systems) invent ways of keeping their 'faithful' busy with endless faith promoting but usually useless tasks as a sort of defense mechanism. Then it made sense why it is done...think of the time and money involved in this!


steve benson
You asked for historical background on Foxman and I provided it.

suggestions from "Flat Lander" .

Re: Talked today with an official of the Anti-Defamation League about the necro-dunking of Simon Wiesenthal's parents. It's essentially the straw that's broken the camel's back . .

Steve,
I would suggest that when you speak with Mr. Foxman again you also point out that there is ALWAYS a CONFIRMATION step performed with each baptism in which two Mormon priests holding the "higher priesthood" confirms the deceased person is in fact a member of CoJCoLdS, and a third holder of the higher priesthood officially records this confirmation of membership on the rolls of the temple.

I also think you should share at least some of what happens in the Endowment, namely:

1. The proxy (on behalf of the deceased Holocaust victim) covenants that he will do all in his power for the building of CoJCoLdS, and makes other similar covenants in favor of CoJCoLdS. Until 1990 these covenants were made under threat of death, including ritualistic gestures symbolizing throat slitting, disembowelment, etc.

2. The proxy (on behalf of the deceased Holocaust victim) learns secret handshakes and passwords without which the deceased Holocaust victim cannot enter heaven.

3. The proxy (on behalf of the deceased Holocaust victim) is given a New Name.

etc.

You might also wish to point out that there are also the Initiatory ordinances where the proxy is "washed" on behalf of the deceased holocaust victim, because the deceased holocaust victim is presumed to be "unclean in the eyes of God."

During that conversation, I was informed that the national director of the ADL, Abraham Foxman, is well-versed on the Mormon doctrine of ritualized dead-dunking and that the Wiesenthal episode has brought the issue into starker focus for the ADL. (Abe has demanded that the practice stop, given that its continuance amounts to a second murder of the Jewish identity of Jewish Holocaust victims. He has also notified the Mormon church that continual ADL monitoring of the church will help, he hopes, keep it from future breaking of the its promise to discontinue the dead-dunking of exterminated Jews. He has asked the Mormon church to implement more stringent internal controls on this dead-dunking practice. He has also called for the Mormon church to consider abandoning its practice of dead-dunking not only Jews but other non-Mormons).

I informed the ADL official with whom I spoke that Mormons not only dead-dunk Jewish victims of the Holocaust, they actually regard themselves to be adopted into the covenant of the ancient Jewish bloodline.

I told him that Mormons are given patriarchal blessings, where the name of the tribe of Israel to which the Mormon recipient of this blessing has supposed Mormon-asserted linkage is pronounced upon the head of the recipient.

The official said he was not aware of that.

I responded that what Mormons do, in effect, is to invade Jewish genealogical tribes, declare these tribes as their own, then extinguish the Jewishness of actual Jews via necro-dunking them into the Mormon church.

He was not pleased to hear that news.

I plan on talking with Abe Foxman about this in some detail, when it is convenient for him to do so (we have known each other since the 1980s when I joined him on an ADL trip to Israel, and most recently met up with him last October when he came through Phoenix).

This is not going away.

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"