New Order Mormon?

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>amberbock Oct 2012</p>\n<p>This term is new to me. Is this something that is commonly known throughout the church now (inactive for +10 yrs.) Is it \"OK\" to tell your bishop you are a NOM [new order Mormon] and still get a temple rec.? Can\'t wrap my mind around this thinking.</p>\n<p>Just read the \"Rules of Disengagement\" on the NOM website and #4 \"Don\'t burn any bridges\" to me is a prime example of the problems with the culture in the first place....</p>\n<hr />\n<p>bc<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nThe term NOM is not commonly known in the church, IMO. It\'s not even well defined among NOMs - it\'s pretty broad.</p>\n<hr />\nwittyname<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI think \"New Order Mormon\" is sort of like the term \"cafeteria Catholic\" - you pick and choose what you are going to believe and embrace and you just sort of ignore the rest. Unlike Judaism, where there\'s Orthodox, Conservative and Reform, LDS only has one denomination. Orthodoxy or nothing. A NOM would be like a Reform Jew, and the Reform movement (with it\'s own structure and congregations, camps, media, etc.) rejects certain doctrine and has less literal interpretations of other aspects of the Torah. But with LDS, you are either LDS or you are not LDS (or you belong to a non-TCOJCOLDS-recognized splinter group).\n<p>I doubt you could tell your bishop that you were a NOM and get a recommend. Even though the definition of NOM is not clear and subject to interpretation, one thing is clear, it tells the bishop that you do not have implicit belief in the church\'s doctrine and/or policies.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Ex-CultMember<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI\'ve always understood it to mean an active Mormon who secretly doesn\'t believe. They still attend for social or cultural reasons. Someone who doesn\'t want to lose a job or offend family members might still go and pretend to be a Mormon even though they are closet doubters.</p>\n<hr />\nsmoteheadofshiz<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nIf you don\'t answer all of the temple recommend questions correctly you will not get a recommend; plain and simple.\n<p>NOM is a broad term though, so I guess if a person technically believed in Joseph Smith, the Restoration, Jesus, and that Tommy Boy is a prophet, (As well as living the laws of chastity, WoW, Tithing of course) but didn\'t necessarily believe in a lot of the doctrine/policies then they could probably get a recommend without lying.</p>\n<p>And no, the term is not well known. I had never heard of a NOM before I left the church. It is certainly something that is not okay with church higher-ups.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>SusieQ#1<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI think the Cafeteria Mormon is the better term and has always been lived by many Mormons depending on where they live, and if they are BIC or converts.</p>\n<p>It seems to encompass those that are predominately cultural, general familial Mormons. They do certain things as expected and ignore the rest.</p>\n<p>There is a great article written by Kirby on this subject of the different kinds of Mormons. I\'ll see if I can find it.</p>\n<p>Yup, Here it is, reposted from archives in 2012~</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54003962-80/mormons-church-percent-believe.html.csp\" title=\"http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54003962-80/mormons-church-percent-believe.html.csp\">http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54003962-80/mormons-church-percen...</a></p>\n<hr />\n<p>Heresy<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nIF you are NOM, you should tell the bishop as little as possible about anything.</p>\n<hr />\nrationalguy<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI simply can\'t understand the concept of NOM. Since TSCC has falsehoods at it\'s core and all the \"good\" things one might obtain from it are available elsewhere, why would I even want to associate with it? I think it\'s just rationalizing so as not to rock the boat. I feel it would be intellectually dishonest of me to keep up appearances while not believing the doctrine. Not condemning anyone who does it though. I just don\'t understand it, is all.\n<hr />\n<p>SusieQ#1<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nThis is how many people live their religions all over the world -- what I prefer to call: Cafeteria Style.<br />\nIt\'s never about what is factually true, it\'s more about their generational heritage of faith,and culture and the society they live in.</p>\n<p>For instance, many who convert to LDS in very Catholic type countries will continue to celebrate the Catholic holidays and traditions.</p>\n<p>It\'s a mish mash of religious views.</p>\n<p>Kinda fun, actually!</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Atanasius<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nIf you don\'t understand NOM, try read something about: <a href=\"http://www.staylds.com/\" title=\"http://www.staylds.com/\">http://www.staylds.com/</a></p>\n<hr />\n<p>dazed11<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI don\'t think a NOM would admit they are NOM to their bishop if they want to go to the temple. If he knew what that meant he would not give them a recommend. They seem to take the path of just giving the answers that are required and then having their own justification in their mind of why they are not lying. There is a whole article on it on StayLDS.com that gives each question and an explanation how you can answer correctly even if you don\'t believe in it the way most Mormons do.</p>\n<hr />\nrationalguy<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nWell, I\'ve read StayLDS.com, I don\'t want to stay LDS, though. If you go to church you have to listen to the lessons and talks and when I do, I get a sick feeling because now I know it\'s propaganda and lots of it is lies. Even going in a ward building has a feeling of dark repression. I started feeling that way when I found out all the falsehoods and so forth. Why don\'t they feel that way?\n<hr />\n<p>rationalguy<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nSo just do what the covert polygs do, huh?</p>\n<hr />\nbc<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI\'ve read staylds - basically it comes down to this:\n<p>Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.</p>\n<p>Vizzini: But it\'s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy\'s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.</p>\n<p>Man in Black: You\'ve made your decision then?</p>\n<p>Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.</p>\n<p>Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.</p>\n<p>Vizzini: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?</p>\n<p>Which I think is what rationalguy\'s initial point was.</p>\n<hr />\ntaketheredpill<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI agree,\n<p>I refer to my DW as NOMish. We haven\'t been to the TSCC since January. She likes cocktails, hates wearing G\'s, and has real issues with Polygamy. But, she feels like we are just on a break at the moment. This is not a NOM. She\'s a less active member.</p>\n<p>New Orders: are people who consciously feel comfortable adopting and abandoning parts of Mormonism as they see fit. If they don\'t want to keep the WOrd, or be \"morally clean,\" they won\'t. But, if they want to embrace the BoM as the word of God they will, if they want to go to church once a month or once a year they will.</p>\n<p>I think a NOM is a strange concept. In the MORG, you\'re in, you\'re lazy, or you\'re completely out. NOM\'s Know the damning evidence of church hist. but, still embrace Mormonism on their own terms.</p>\n<p>....</p>\n<hr />\nThe Man in Black<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI like how I\'m somehow connected to this. Especially since DW wants to be NOM and I want nothing to do with Mormonism.\n<p>Yeah, staylds is a red herring goose chasing a needle in Australia, which everyone knows, is entirely peopled with criminals. The point is don\'t compare apples to a penny saved a dime a dozen.</p>\n<hr />\nrationalguy<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nWell, I\'m the type of person who, when I find out something is BS, I leave. I don\'t want to sit there listening to it and getting upset and not being able to say anything about my beliefs. They are just there to drink the Kool-Aid and not question. It\'s now sickening to me, especially watching children being indoctrinated.\n<hr />\nHeresy<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nAnd I\'m just guessing that you don\'t have a beloved spouse still in the church and a marriage you are trying to save.\n<hr />\nfidget<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI wouldn\'t be able to do it either.\n<hr />\n<p>fidget<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI\'m pretty sure that rationalguy has a TBM spouse..</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Mtnmarty<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nThere are any number of reasons to be a NOM.</p>\n<p>1. You like dressing up as pioneers and dig the whole handcart heritage thing.</p>\n<p>2. You find mormonism to be a really large dungeons and dragons roll-playing game.</p>\n<p>3. For evolutionary reasons, you think indoctrinating your kids with mormonism will increase the number of your surviving offspring.</p>\n<p>4. You live in the corridor and you like knowing a lot of your neighbors.</p>\n<p>5. You are too lazy to find another church and think some religion is useful in your life.</p>\n<p>There are a lot of rational reasons. Its not like there aren\'t lots of other situations where people are lying a lot of the time. Do you not vote or belong to a political party because politicians lie? Do you not watch TV with commercials? Do you not talk to salespeople?</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Mtnmarty<br />\nRe: New Order Mormon?<br />\nI was go to say role-playing but those lion house rolls just got to me and out came roll-playing.</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1406206719, expire = 1406293119, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:18dec2447b79916163f7aebe68a46c2b' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

amberbock Oct 2012

This term is new to me. Is this something that is commonly known throughout the church now (inactive for +10 yrs.) Is it "OK" to tell your bishop you are a NOM [new order Mormon] and still get a temple rec.? Can't wrap my mind around this thinking.

Just read the "Rules of Disengagement" on the NOM website and #4 "Don't burn any bridges" to me is a prime example of the problems with the culture in the first place....


bc
Re: New Order Mormon?
The term NOM is not commonly known in the church, IMO. It's not even well defined among NOMs - it's pretty broad.


wittyname
Re: New Order Mormon?
I think "New Order Mormon" is sort of like the term "cafeteria Catholic" - you pick and choose what you are going to believe and embrace and you just sort of ignore the rest. Unlike Judaism, where there's Orthodox, Conservative and Reform, LDS only has one denomination. Orthodoxy or nothing. A NOM would be like a Reform Jew, and the Reform movement (with it's own structure and congregations, camps, media, etc.) rejects certain doctrine and has less literal interpretations of other aspects of the Torah. But with LDS, you are either LDS or you are not LDS (or you belong to a non-TCOJCOLDS-recognized splinter group).

I doubt you could tell your bishop that you were a NOM and get a recommend. Even though the definition of NOM is not clear and subject to interpretation, one thing is clear, it tells the bishop that you do not have implicit belief in the church's doctrine and/or policies.


Ex-CultMember
Re: New Order Mormon?
I've always understood it to mean an active Mormon who secretly doesn't believe. They still attend for social or cultural reasons. Someone who doesn't want to lose a job or offend family members might still go and pretend to be a Mormon even though they are closet doubters.


smoteheadofshiz
Re: New Order Mormon?
If you don't answer all of the temple recommend questions correctly you will not get a recommend; plain and simple.

NOM is a broad term though, so I guess if a person technically believed in Joseph Smith, the Restoration, Jesus, and that Tommy Boy is a prophet, (As well as living the laws of chastity, WoW, Tithing of course) but didn't necessarily believe in a lot of the doctrine/policies then they could probably get a recommend without lying.

And no, the term is not well known. I had never heard of a NOM before I left the church. It is certainly something that is not okay with church higher-ups.


SusieQ#1
Re: New Order Mormon?
I think the Cafeteria Mormon is the better term and has always been lived by many Mormons depending on where they live, and if they are BIC or converts.

It seems to encompass those that are predominately cultural, general familial Mormons. They do certain things as expected and ignore the rest.

There is a great article written by Kirby on this subject of the different kinds of Mormons. I'll see if I can find it.

Yup, Here it is, reposted from archives in 2012~

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54003962-80/mormons-church-percen...


Heresy
Re: New Order Mormon?
IF you are NOM, you should tell the bishop as little as possible about anything.


rationalguy
Re: New Order Mormon?
I simply can't understand the concept of NOM. Since TSCC has falsehoods at it's core and all the "good" things one might obtain from it are available elsewhere, why would I even want to associate with it? I think it's just rationalizing so as not to rock the boat. I feel it would be intellectually dishonest of me to keep up appearances while not believing the doctrine. Not condemning anyone who does it though. I just don't understand it, is all.

SusieQ#1
Re: New Order Mormon?
This is how many people live their religions all over the world -- what I prefer to call: Cafeteria Style.
It's never about what is factually true, it's more about their generational heritage of faith,and culture and the society they live in.

For instance, many who convert to LDS in very Catholic type countries will continue to celebrate the Catholic holidays and traditions.

It's a mish mash of religious views.

Kinda fun, actually!


Atanasius
Re: New Order Mormon?
If you don't understand NOM, try read something about: http://www.staylds.com/


dazed11
Re: New Order Mormon?
I don't think a NOM would admit they are NOM to their bishop if they want to go to the temple. If he knew what that meant he would not give them a recommend. They seem to take the path of just giving the answers that are required and then having their own justification in their mind of why they are not lying. There is a whole article on it on StayLDS.com that gives each question and an explanation how you can answer correctly even if you don't believe in it the way most Mormons do.


rationalguy
Re: New Order Mormon?
Well, I've read StayLDS.com, I don't want to stay LDS, though. If you go to church you have to listen to the lessons and talks and when I do, I get a sick feeling because now I know it's propaganda and lots of it is lies. Even going in a ward building has a feeling of dark repression. I started feeling that way when I found out all the falsehoods and so forth. Why don't they feel that way?

rationalguy
Re: New Order Mormon?
So just do what the covert polygs do, huh?


bc
Re: New Order Mormon?
I've read staylds - basically it comes down to this:

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You've made your decision then?

Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?

Which I think is what rationalguy's initial point was.


taketheredpill
Re: New Order Mormon?
I agree,

I refer to my DW as NOMish. We haven't been to the TSCC since January. She likes cocktails, hates wearing G's, and has real issues with Polygamy. But, she feels like we are just on a break at the moment. This is not a NOM. She's a less active member.

New Orders: are people who consciously feel comfortable adopting and abandoning parts of Mormonism as they see fit. If they don't want to keep the WOrd, or be "morally clean," they won't. But, if they want to embrace the BoM as the word of God they will, if they want to go to church once a month or once a year they will.

I think a NOM is a strange concept. In the MORG, you're in, you're lazy, or you're completely out. NOM's Know the damning evidence of church hist. but, still embrace Mormonism on their own terms.

....


The Man in Black
Re: New Order Mormon?
I like how I'm somehow connected to this. Especially since DW wants to be NOM and I want nothing to do with Mormonism.

Yeah, staylds is a red herring goose chasing a needle in Australia, which everyone knows, is entirely peopled with criminals. The point is don't compare apples to a penny saved a dime a dozen.


rationalguy
Re: New Order Mormon?
Well, I'm the type of person who, when I find out something is BS, I leave. I don't want to sit there listening to it and getting upset and not being able to say anything about my beliefs. They are just there to drink the Kool-Aid and not question. It's now sickening to me, especially watching children being indoctrinated.
Heresy
Re: New Order Mormon?
And I'm just guessing that you don't have a beloved spouse still in the church and a marriage you are trying to save.
fidget
Re: New Order Mormon?
I wouldn't be able to do it either.

fidget
Re: New Order Mormon?
I'm pretty sure that rationalguy has a TBM spouse..


Mtnmarty
Re: New Order Mormon?
There are any number of reasons to be a NOM.

1. You like dressing up as pioneers and dig the whole handcart heritage thing.

2. You find mormonism to be a really large dungeons and dragons roll-playing game.

3. For evolutionary reasons, you think indoctrinating your kids with mormonism will increase the number of your surviving offspring.

4. You live in the corridor and you like knowing a lot of your neighbors.

5. You are too lazy to find another church and think some religion is useful in your life.

There are a lot of rational reasons. Its not like there aren't lots of other situations where people are lying a lot of the time. Do you not vote or belong to a political party because politicians lie? Do you not watch TV with commercials? Do you not talk to salespeople?


Mtnmarty
Re: New Order Mormon?
I was go to say role-playing but those lion house rolls just got to me and out came roll-playing.

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"