my Mormon family has selective memory of the temple

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>by Romy Mar 2012</p>\n<p>I recently revealed my disbelief to my mom, dad and another family member and told them my first issue came up from looking up mason secrets after hearing someone at work talking about masons. I had NO CLUE what I was in for because I have never been through the endowment, looked up anything about the ceremony, watched Big Love, heard anything from friends etc...so when I got a lot of google links back about the similarities of masonry to the mormon temple ceremony I was shocked.</p>\n<p>I knew it was against the rules to look up the endowment ceremony on the internet but after the little I had read about the masonic influence I had to know more. I was blown away by the weirdness I read about especially in the pre 1990 version.</p>\n<p>That started me on a few month road from being a mostly TBM [Mormon] to total disbelief and some feelings of betrayal. I say I was a mostly TBM because I disagreed mostly with some of the social parts of the church (obsessed with getting married and popping out kids, push for the members to help with prop 8 campaigning, and I did already know I wanted nothing to do with garments). Reading all the things I have the last few months leaves me feeling like I was really mislead all my BIC life.</p>\n<p>I knew I would have to eventually so I went ahead and got the guts to call and tell my parents. They were calm and I cried a lot while explaining what led me to where I am now. I told them it started with the endowment/masonry stuff and they gave the apologist answers of 1.there is always a wicked thing/opposite influence to all good things in the world, basically masonry is of the devil 2. it relates to soloman\'s temple and JS got the WHOLE revelation and mason\'s only have some corrupted stuff and not all the truth. I know the rest of you here know I didn\'t buy into either of those. I told them the endowment ceremony info I\'d read and was very uncomfortable with a lot of it and believed it was ripped off from the masons. I talked about the pre 1990 naked except for a poncho and they denied it, I talked about the death oaths and they denied it. I thought MAYBE they would throw me a bone and say \'ok, it was a lot to take in at first\' or \'it seemed a little weird until I went more to understand better\' but no, they both thought it was the most normal, peaceful, cool place they have ever been and if it seems odd that person isn\'t spiritual enough etc. My other family member said the same. I told them I\'d read over 100 accounts of people saying they did the naked under the poncho thing and death oaths and I couldn\'t just ignore that. I don\'t know if they blocked those things out or are just lying for the Lord??</p>\n<p>My mom was pretty offended that the text of the ceremony is written out on the web because to her it is sacred and that she doesn\'t like they are painting out to be something weird because she would NOT be part of something weird. I told her no one had to convince me, I read the words of what happens and statements from people who have attended and I came up with the fact that it was weird all on my own. She thinks that is still because people on the web are lying and painting it to be something it is not. I was trying to be respectful and I knew she couldn\'t talk much about the temple happenings but I finally told her I could never ever get past the idea that a person has to know special handshakes to get into heaven, we didn\'t really talk on the temple beyond that.</p>\n<p>I feel bad for causing my parents pain because I know this is not at all what they expected of me but I told them I have to live a true, honest life and not fake it. Of course none of the 3 family members had heard anything about JS\'s herd of wives, BoA, Mark Hoffman, Adam-God, JS\'s gun in Carthage, etc. I do still want to be respectful of the things they believe but I wish they would look into those things for themselves and realize I\'m not a fool who believes everything they read on the internet(I made sure to repeatedly reference documentation for many of my issues) and that I\'m not being convinced by anti groups trying to drag me down.</p>\n<p>Anyhow, my question to yall is, please tell me I\'m not crazy for believing the last 100 people that said it and confirm if the pre 1990 death oaths and naked under the poncho is legit or not???</p>\n<hr />\n<p>ronas<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nThe naked under the poncho thing was for the initiatory session which be where you were out of context is talking with them. (They are probably thinking of the endowment session.) Here\'s how it worked:</p>\n<p>You went into a room with someone of the same sex as you - for some parts it was just you for some parts it was two of them.</p>\n<p>The said a washing prayer over you while washing each part of the body named. When they did loins they touched a spot on your belly maybe six inches from your genitals. Plus they washed lots of other spots, like breat - a finger on the sternum, ears, legs, arms, etc. Then they repeated to whole thing for the anointing.</p>\n<p>This changed much later than 1990 - maybe 6 years ago when all the sex abuse scandals were hitting the fan in the Catholic church.</p>\n<p>For them to think the modern temple ceremony has any connection at all to Solomon\'s temple is complete ignorance on there part. The workings of Solomon\'s temple is well documented and is nothing like the modern lds service.</p>\n<p>My first temple experience was 1990 so unfortunately I can\'t speak first hand on the death oaths, but yes they happened. Basically what happened is every time you were told a token/name and promised not to reveal it you made a slit mark across your throat indicated that you would die if you revealed it - however it would be very easy to interpret this as a spiritual death instead of a physical death. It was a symbolic thing - I believe there was also something where you did a symbol of cutting your guts at as part of it...</p>\n<p>The temple is weird but there is lower hanging fruit for Mormon problems.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>baura<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nThe date of the big changes in the Endowment were 1990</p>\n<p>The date that fits Mormons\' memory of it best is 1984</p>\n<p>I went through the endowment before the 1990 changes. I dutifully pantomimed slitting my throat, cutting my guts out and the rest and was told that these symbolized ways the life could be taken. I said, in unison with everyone else there, \"rather than do so I would suffer---my life---to be taken.\"</p>\n<p>Then I was told, \"that will do.\"</p>\n<hr />\nMia<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nYou are not crazy! Poncho, LEGIT. I was there, I know for a fact that what you\'ve read is how it happened. I was there in 1973. I was 18. It was one of the most unexpected and humiliating things i\'ve been through. I\'ve had babies and breast cancer. Both are things that you are stripped naked for. The difference is you know what\'s going to happen next. You are in agreement.<br />\nthe temple, no warning, no clue. It felt more like a bad doctor visit than anything else.<br />\nI shocks me that people deny that whole thing. How dare they try to make the truth tellers out as liars. Either they were so traumatized by it they blocked it out, or they are flat out lying.<br />\nHorrible how people who lie can make perfectly sane people feel like they are going crazy. It happens so often. In fact if i\'m feeling off balance about something the first thing i ask myself is if someone is lying to me about something. Amazing how many times the answer is yes.\n<p>I for got about the death oaths. I remember thinking that since I had no idea what I was going to promise, it didn\'t apply to me. I was shocked that anyone would think they would be killed or have to kill themselves over a couple of handshakes. Dumb.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Romy<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\noops, I should have clarified...when they said no I made sure to ask them if it was at the very beginning when being washed, not the whole time...still got a denial of it happening.</p>\n<hr />\nbaura<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nAnother point--\n<p>Your parents went though the temple BEFORE the 1990 changes. That means they DID pantomime the death oaths and promise \"not to reveal . . .\"</p>\n<p>So, I guess by denying it to you they are living up to their pre-1990 covenants. Admitting that the online accounts are correct would be one way of revealing it, which they covenanted never to do.</p>\n<hr />\nFetal Deity<br />\nI was touched nakedly<br />\nI went through the temple for the first time in the early 1980\'s and never attended after the big changes were made in 1990.\n<hr />\n<p>beatnik<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nI first attended the temple in 1979, pre-mission. You are correct about the \"poncho\". It was akin to those little robes people wear in the hospital for an operation, except that instead of being open in the back, it was open on both sides. I don\'t know how it\'s done now, but that\'s how it was then.</p>\n<p>The death oaths were definitely still in force at that time. I lived in Provo and Orem while attending BYU and teaching at the MTC, and visited the temple there many times. How can I ever forget all the times I listened to and participated in the ritualistic, symbolic slitting of my own throat, ripping my heart out, and disemboweling myself, were I to reveal the secret tokens of the priesthood?</p>\n<p>Of course you can read the whole thing now, but as I recall, the words spoken by the narrator, and which we were to repeat in our minds, were to the effect that, \"rather than reveal the (first or second) token of the (Aaronic or Melchisedek) priesthood, I would suffer (short pause while moving the hands into position), my life (short pause while sliding the hand across the throat, chest, or stomach area), to be taken (hands drop to side while saying those last 3 words).</p>\n<p>Was it real? Of course it was real. Anyone old enough to have been there knows that. Your folks may have forgotten about it by now. Who knows?</p>\n<p>I guess all that matters really is that it was real, and you are right about that and a good many other things.</p>\n<hr />\nRomy<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nThanks for the affirmations :) It is hard for me to see people I know that have been through the endowment session (and praise it or keep returning for more) quite the same anymore now, knowing what I know. I feel like some of them have got to be suffering in silence and I so wish I could get in their heads and know their thoughts.\n<p>I am so glad I never went through, I can\'t imagine having that memory and feeling what seems like a total loss of control.</p>\n<p>Daily I think, thank goodness for the internet!! I would be lost without the personal accounts and info I have been able to find on the web that I would never have known about before the internet age.</p>\n<p>I am also really really glad to be single and childless because I cannot imagine the stress of those things being involved during this experience.</p>\n<hr />\nRomy<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nThanks for the affirmations :) It is hard for me to see people I know that have been through the endowment session (and praise it or keep returning for more) quite the same anymore now, knowing what I know. I feel like some of them have got to be suffering in silence and I so wish I could get in their heads and know their thoughts.\n<p>I am so glad I never went through, I can\'t imagine having that memory and feeling what seems like a total loss of control.</p>\n<p>Daily I think, thank goodness for the internet!! I would be lost without the personal accounts and info I have been able to find on the web that I would never have known about before the internet age.</p>\n<p>I am also really really glad to be single and childless because I cannot imagine the stress of those things being involved during this experience.</p>\n<hr />\nTahoe Girl<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nMy first time through was 1981. Yes, I was naked under the poncho with open sides. Yes, they put water and oil on me. None of my \"private areas\" were ever touched.\n<p>And yes, I pantomimed the throat slitting, chest slicing and gut ripping death oaths.</p>\n<p>Your parents have not forgotten. They\'re likely just embarrassed and don\'t want to admit that they took part in such weirdness.</p>\n<p>TG</p>\n<hr />\nRomy<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\n**sorry for the multiple posts..I\'m new to this board\n<p>Thanks for the affirmations :) It is hard for me to see people I know that have been through the endowment session (and praise it or keep returning for more) quite the same anymore now, knowing what I know. I feel like some of them have got to be suffering in silence and I so wish I could get in their heads and know their thoughts.</p>\n<p>I am so glad I never went through, I can\'t imagine having that memory and feeling what seems like a total loss of control.</p>\n<p>Daily I think, thank goodness for the internet!! I would be lost without the personal accounts and info I have been able to find on the web that I would never have known about before the internet age.</p>\n<p>I am also really really glad to be single and childless because I cannot imagine the stress of those things being involved during this experience.</p>\n<hr />\nDave the Atheist<br />\n\"against the rules to look up the endowment ceremony on the internet \"<br />\nIs that doctrine or is that folklore ?\n<hr />\nRomy<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nI would be embarrassed too!\n<p>I was talking to a nevermo friend who said he was proud of me for doing this because it must be difficult and he thought it was cool I was figuring out my own beliefs but he maintained he still never had an issue with any mormons he has known or understood why it gets called a cult but if it wasn\'t right for me, then good for me for being able to stand up for that.</p>\n<p>I gave him a really condenced version of how I changed my mind and he asked me what does go in in the temple? I told him its chants, oaths, handshakes etc. and he says he thinks he has seen this somewhere before with a woman doing handshakes through a sheet. I told him that was on Big Love and he was like oh ya...wait, I thought that was fictional!? He was pretty freaked out when I told him nope, that is legit.</p>\n<p>lol, his stance quickly went from \'mormonism still seems as normal as any other religion but if it doesn\'t work for you thats cool\' to \'OMG, thank goodness you got out of that cult!\'</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Romy<br />\nRe: \"against the rules to look up the endowment ceremony on the internet \"<br />\ngood question.</p>\n<p>I would guess its not official doctrine since its only been an issue the last under 20 years since the internet came about, but I was definitely told by a YM leader it was a sin to look it up (who knows where she got her info) and that we aren\'t supposed to know anything about it until we go ourselves. I truly felt something bad would happen to me if I were to look it up. Ah, indoctrination.</p>\n<p>Now I wish I hadn\'t been such a goody goody and looked it up years ago.</p>\n<hr />\nTahoe Girl<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nHe probably thought it was fictional because it seemed too bizarre to be real.\n<p>Stupid cult.</p>\n<p>TG</p>\n<hr />\nRomy<br />\nlying for the lord and didn\'t even know it<br />\nI also felt like a fool when I found that out because I had previously told a coworker we did no such thing. Well, there was a technicality, but still.\n<p>I heard him talking with another coworker about a possible career move to Utah but wondering what the culture with so many LDS would be like. The other guy told him he should take the job and he might even end up naked in the temple with all the other mormons.</p>\n<p>I was still a clueless-on-many-things-TBM at that time and turned around to tell him btw, I am mormon and we don\'t do that. They both had a look of panic and were like oh, uh, oops.</p>\n<p>Shortly after I told a nevermo friend about this thinking that seemed like a real stretch of a mormon myth because we are the prudest people around yet they think we get naked in our most sacred place?? Come to find out he wasn\'t too far off.</p>\n<hr />\neskimogirlfriend<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nI went through in 2000 and the initiatory was still done nude with the \"shield\" (that was the official name of the big sheet or poncho). I was also helped into my garments by two old women, underneath the shield. From what I\'ve heard recently, you now put on your own garments back in the changing area.\n<p>It was definitely weird and creepy and entirely inappropriate that they force you to go through with all of that with absolutely no warning at all. I wish I had had the guts to walk out immediately.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>anagrammy<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nOther threats from the temple are that if they do not live up to the covenants that they make in \"this temple, YOU WILL BE IN MY POWER\" says Satan closeup and threatening.</p>\n<p>This is the origin of many mormon responses which mystify some, like why does everyone keep saying I am under the control of Satan?</p>\n<p>I also was touched naked under a \"shield\" and was shaking with fear. I was very puzzled about being asked if I wanted to \"withdraw\", i.e., back out because the oaths I was about to take were so important to be kept...without being told what they were. It made no sense to me, but being a good little person watching the Emperor parading by naked, I looked around and no one else was saying anything, so I said nothing.</p>\n<p>Wish now that I had asked for full disclosure before I decided whether to withdraw or not.</p>\n<p>Anagrammy</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Romy<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nIt is really terrible they put people in a place where they feel so helpless.</p>\n<hr />\nonendagus<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nI could tell you about it but \"Rather than do so, I suffer, my life, to be taken\".\n<p>1983 here. Slit yer throat, slice yer chest and cut yer guts. The reason they are mad is because they haven\'t been able to properly condition er I mean prepare you for the fraternity clown outfits and pranks. Usually there is enormous social pressure (mission, impending marriage) that makes people just go through with it. Plus humans are amazingly adaptable to going with the flow if others they trust are doing it.</p>\n<p>And if you want to know why they are so concerned and lying about it now, just know it is their modus operandi. Here is what Steve Hassan has to say about high control groups and how they operate. This is from his BITE model:</p>\n<p>Information Control</p>\n<p>1. Use of deception</p>\n<p>a. Deliberately holding back information</p>\n<p>b. Distorting information to make it acceptable</p>\n<p>c. Outright lying</p>\n<p>2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged</p>\n<p>a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio</p>\n<p>b. Critical information</p>\n<p>c. Former members</p>\n<p>d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think</p>\n<p>3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines</p>\n<p>a. Information is not freely accessible</p>\n<p>b. Information varies at different levels and missions within<br />\npyramid</p>\n<p>c. Leadership decides who “needs to know” what</p>\n<p>4. Spying on other members is encouraged</p>\n<p>a. Pairing up with “buddy” system to monitor and control</p>\n<p>b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership</p>\n<p>5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda</p>\n<p>a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes,<br />\netc.</p>\n<p>b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult<br />\nsources</p>\n<p>6. Unethical use of confession</p>\n<p>a. Information about “sins” used to abolish identity<br />\nboundaries</p>\n<p>b. Past “sins” used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness<br />\nor absolution</p>\n<hr />\nOlderThandirt<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nMy wife and I were married in the temple in 1961.\n<p>Yes. Being naked under the \"shield\" and all the stupid blood oaths were DEFINITELY performed.</p>\n<p>It was the most infantile process that I\'ve ever been through. And there was no advance warning of what was going to happen.</p>\n<p>We came to our senses and have been out of the cult for 40 years now!</p>\n<hr />\nloveskids<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nMarried in 1972 when I had just turned 20. Had NO clue what went on in the Temple. The naked washing was humiliating and scary. I didn\'t know what they were going to do to me next. Slit your throat,slice your chest and rip your guts out. How special and lovely and Christ like. I always hated the temple and in my 37 years being temple worthy I probably went 2 dozen times only.\n<hr />\ntempleendumbed<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nI went through in 86 for the first time in SLC. Side slit poncho was used, but I don\'t think they touched my junk for anointings. We definitely did all of the death oaths for the various tokens of the aaronic and melch penishood. I can clearly remember coming home from mission and being in temple sessions where temple workers were focused on making sure that people didn\'t do the death oaths anymore once the changes were made. It was very obvious that everyone there was confused and was thinking that the officiators had made an error. I was certainly one of them since I had made the attempt to be a super mormon and had nearly memorized the whole thing. oh christ what and idiot I was.\n<p>You probably came across this, but the best example to demonstrate that js was full of crap on the temple ceremony was that he included the 5 points of fellowship at the veil. This was eliminated in the 1990 changes. However this 5 points crap was a very late addition to free masonry and certainly did not go back to solomon.</p>\n<p>Sorry your parents would lie to you, but I\'m sure my parents were too far into the cult to be honest with me as well - you\'re not alone.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>amos2<br />\nI didn\'t mind the shield/washing/annointing<br />\nI found it somewhat profound, like at a hospital.<br />\nTo say \"naked\" is a bit of an overstatement. You donned the shield in the locker room in a private stall. Walking around in the shield wasn\'t naked, it covers you from your shoulders to your knees. It\'s not secured shut on the sides but it has enough slack that it lays shut.<br />\nThe washer/annointer never actually sees you naked, he just reaches in the side and touches your flank while referring to your \"loins\".<br />\nI think as a relgious ritual it\'s kind of interesting.</p>\n<p>My point is...even if there were NOTHING offensive about mormon rituals or doctrines...they\'re still FAKE.</p>\n<p>The fundamental problem with the temple is that it pretends to \"place you under oath\", \"covenant\", or \"obligation\" by the authority of God, when in fact it does no such thing. It\'s a manmade fake, a fraud, no matter how PC they try to make it.</p>\n<hr />\nCarol Y.<br />\nAdd me to the list of people who did the naked under the poncho and the death oaths, Dec. 4, 1970.&nbsp;\n<hr />\n<p>dk<br />\nIf the church can\'t be completely honest, it should stop selling its product<br />\nI never went through the temple and I was appalled when I read about the ceremony.</p>\n<p>I know the church hides what goes on in the temple as sacred. However, I say, if they can\'t be completely open and honest, then stop the missionaries, stop the commercials, and stop selling the product.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>hello<br />\nRe: Add me to the list of people who did the naked under the poncho and the death oaths, Dec. 4, 1970.<br />\nMe too, in \'71 I think.</p>\n<hr />\nalex71ut<br />\nShield, not poncho<br />\nI think it was around 2003-2004 that the church changed the initiatories\' process to no longer touch around 15 parts of the body during the washings and then the annointings. Yes it looked like a poncho but the proper term was Shield. I don\'t know why we called it a Shield but we just did. In booth #1 you\'d sit on a stool in nothing but the shield for the washings by worker #1. Then worker #2 would come in and give you a blessing with worker #1 assisting. Next worker #2 takes you to booth #2 where you\'d sit on a stool once again in nothing but the shield for the annointings with oil by worker #2. Then worker #3 would come in and give you a blessing with worker #2 assisting. Next worker #3 takes you to booth #3 where you carefully put on the garment under the shield as worker #3 respects your privacy and explains to you that you (for and in behalf of the dead person) must wear this garment until you have finished your work on the earth. Then you change out of the garment which you leave in booth #3 and then prepare to be taken by the worker in booth #1 for the washings in behalf of the next dead person on the list.\n<hr />\nDNA<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nI went through in the mid-eighties. I am a very honest person, and I take promises made by me extremely serious. When I got to the parts promising the slice myself open and kill myself, I gulped and thought “Will I really do this”, then due to peer pressure and a belief that this was important to do, I decided to myself that yes I really would and said yes.\n<p>I didn’t want to put myself in a position of having to kill myself, especially in such a gruesome manner, but I knew that if I made the promise, I would really do it. I’m that kind of person. It ruined the whole thing for me, knowing that I was now under such an obligation. If I was the type of person who could think, no I’m not really go to ever do this to myself, then I could have just shrugged it off. But if I promised it, then I’d have to do it.</p>\n<p>I was surprised when on the KSL News comments section when I once exposed those oaths, that everyone said that I was a liar. Many said that they went through prior and they swore that I was lying. I was shocked that THEY would lie about it. Then I decided that perhaps they really don’t remember.</p>\n<p>Our memories are designed in such a way that we tend to remember more recent things better. People can usually remember their phone number that they’ve had for the past 10 years better than the one from 30 years ago. The new one tends to write over the old one. It isn’t always the case, but it tends to be that way.</p>\n<p>So people who have gone back over and over to the Temple for the past 22 years might really not think that it was ever different than what they are doing now. Because of how the oath impacted me, I still very much remember the new, even though I kept going back in the 90’s. However, I don’t remember the washings as well.</p>\n<hr />\ndeconverted2010<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nYou\'ll find this post from Richard Packham interesting..\n<p><a href=\"http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,445374,445403#msg-445403\" title=\"http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,445374,445403#msg-445403\">http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,445374,445403#msg-445403</a></p>\n<p>I went through the temple in the mid 90\'s, 95 I think. I had to go throug the washing and annointing with a shield (poncho open on both sides) on me, otherwise I was naked. I also had a worker put a garment on me. I felt very uncomfortable with all but kept thinking on this being true and waiting for revelation a the temple.</p>\n<p>I hear that now the washing and annointing still uses a shield over a naked body, but he shield is closed on the sides and the person being washed puts their own garments on.</p>\n<p>I didn\'t do death oaths but I knew there were changes. I had not clue what it was, I just remember a Sunday in the late 80\'s endowed members were asked to fill a survey. Then a year or two later I heard people being encourage to come to the temple and that they would really love it now.</p>\n<hr />\nOtremer<br />\nMormonism: Just remember this.<br />\nAs a rule of thumb, if you think Mormonism couldn\'t possibly be that weird or depraved, you\'re probably wrong and anybody who tells you otherwise is probably lying.\n<hr />\n<p>cludgie<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nThings in regard to Freemasonry and Mormonism: The LDS temple ceremony has nothing--NOTHING--to do with the temple of Solomon, and that is more of a mistake of Freemasonry than of Mormonism. Any Jewish scholar can tell you about Solomon\'s temple, and it is all well documented. A whole sub-group of Freemasons believe that the solemn ceremony has its roots in the Jewish temple ceremonies, but it doesn\'t. It has its roots only in European stone masonry from the Middle Ages, first a way of initiating journeymen masons so that when they traveled for their 2-year stint to work for other master masons they would be able to show in a handshake how much or what they knew. The whole thing erupted into the masonic guilds and social clubs and took on a life of its own much later. So the need to link it to the temple of Solomon verifies that the LDS temple ceremony is directly linked to Freemasonry.</p>\n<p>A second item is that if Freemasonry is \"of the devil,\" then Joseph Smith et al. were all practicing Satan-worship. Your parents need to take a trip to Nauvoo and a tour of the Masonic temple built by Smith. LDS senior missionaries will gladly tell you that the brethren were Masons and that they built the temple. (Missionaries reveal nothing about linking it to the Nauvoo temple itself, and likely don\'t even know.) So was Smith a Satan worshiper? The original LDS temple ceremony was nothing less than \"Craft Lodge\" or \"Blue Lodge\" Masonic induction and was first used exclusively to introduce men only to the \"New and Everlasting Covenant\" of marriage and to swear them to secrecy, hence the death oaths. Then it took decades for it to morph into what it is now. Even using it as a place to seal blood families together for eternity came decades later and is a relatively modern concept in the Mormon church. Good Mormons are loathe to admit that their church morphs from concept to concept, but we are all witnesses of that right now.</p>\n<p>As for other things like the naked washings and anointings, the death oaths, no Mormons I know personally will admit to that, no matter how many times they did it themselves. It is apparently just too sensitive for them. But it\'s quite well documented, and there are many of us here who have done them. The older ones, like Richard P. and those in their mid-70s remember the day when you REMOVED the \"shield\" (white poncho) and stood naked over a drain while they washed you somewhat more thoroughly than later. I don\'t want to say that your parents are liars, but they are \"lying for the Lord\" in this regard. I doubt that they just no longer remember.</p>\n<hr />\n2thdoc<br />\nApril 8, 1981<br />\nI had NO idea what I was in for, and the first thing the temple worker said to me in the locker room was, \"get naked as a jay bird, put this shield over you, and follow me.\"\n<hr />\nscooter<br />\nyour parents are lying.<br />\nIf you want their respect, you should call them on it.\n<hr />\nronas<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nThings still in the temple today:\n<p>1) You promise to sacrifice everything you have, even your own life if necessary to the church (worded as kingdom of god on earth).</p>\n<p>2) You promise to consecrate everything with which the Lord has blessed you to the church.</p>\n<p>So you promise all of your possessions and your life to the church in the temple even today.</p>\n<p>Also you promise to not participate in loud laughter or any other unholy practice.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>looking in<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nMy family were converts, and didn\'t stick with it long enough for me to even get close to being old enough to attend the temple.</p>\n<p>But I do remember going to Calgary from Edmonton with my mom and dad when I was a kid once, and being left with my aunt and uncle overnight while my parents \"went on a trip\". When they returned, my mom was very tense and short, and not long after that we stopped attending the lds.</p>\n<p>In retrospect, I think my mom and dad must have gone to Cardston, which had the only temple in Alberta at that time, to take out endowments, My mom was already not much in favour of this mormon business, so the temple ceremony (pre-1990) would have put her over the top!</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Greyfort<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nTotally legit. I took my Endowments out in 1989. The naked thing during my Initiatories was so awkward. I\'m hard of hearing, so when they whispered everything to me, I couldn\'t understand a thing they said. Even though they\'d pinned a note on me stating that I was hard of hearing, they wouldn\'t get any louder.</p>\n<p>The death oaths in the Endowment session scared the crap out of me. It took all of my energy not to bolt from that room. I thought, \"I\'m not doing this!\" but there seemed to be nowhere to run and so I somehow got through it.</p>\n<p>I didn\'t even care that they changed things after that. I was just really relieved that I didn\'t have to do that again.</p>\n<hr />\nGreyfort<br />\nRe: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me<br />\nGood point, Baura. But instead of downright lying, they could simply say, \"Honey, I can\'t talk about that. It\'s sacred.\" They could add that it\'s actually a covenant not to talk about it, but not essential to add that part.\n<p>I\'m shocked by the lies too. Hello? I was there! They\'re lying to my face and they know it.</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1495763357, expire = 1495849757, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:4c78aa83661108d3d1a2c8a5218a8f3b' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

by Romy Mar 2012

I recently revealed my disbelief to my mom, dad and another family member and told them my first issue came up from looking up mason secrets after hearing someone at work talking about masons. I had NO CLUE what I was in for because I have never been through the endowment, looked up anything about the ceremony, watched Big Love, heard anything from friends etc...so when I got a lot of google links back about the similarities of masonry to the mormon temple ceremony I was shocked.

I knew it was against the rules to look up the endowment ceremony on the internet but after the little I had read about the masonic influence I had to know more. I was blown away by the weirdness I read about especially in the pre 1990 version.

That started me on a few month road from being a mostly TBM [Mormon] to total disbelief and some feelings of betrayal. I say I was a mostly TBM because I disagreed mostly with some of the social parts of the church (obsessed with getting married and popping out kids, push for the members to help with prop 8 campaigning, and I did already know I wanted nothing to do with garments). Reading all the things I have the last few months leaves me feeling like I was really mislead all my BIC life.

I knew I would have to eventually so I went ahead and got the guts to call and tell my parents. They were calm and I cried a lot while explaining what led me to where I am now. I told them it started with the endowment/masonry stuff and they gave the apologist answers of 1.there is always a wicked thing/opposite influence to all good things in the world, basically masonry is of the devil 2. it relates to soloman's temple and JS got the WHOLE revelation and mason's only have some corrupted stuff and not all the truth. I know the rest of you here know I didn't buy into either of those. I told them the endowment ceremony info I'd read and was very uncomfortable with a lot of it and believed it was ripped off from the masons. I talked about the pre 1990 naked except for a poncho and they denied it, I talked about the death oaths and they denied it. I thought MAYBE they would throw me a bone and say 'ok, it was a lot to take in at first' or 'it seemed a little weird until I went more to understand better' but no, they both thought it was the most normal, peaceful, cool place they have ever been and if it seems odd that person isn't spiritual enough etc. My other family member said the same. I told them I'd read over 100 accounts of people saying they did the naked under the poncho thing and death oaths and I couldn't just ignore that. I don't know if they blocked those things out or are just lying for the Lord??

My mom was pretty offended that the text of the ceremony is written out on the web because to her it is sacred and that she doesn't like they are painting out to be something weird because she would NOT be part of something weird. I told her no one had to convince me, I read the words of what happens and statements from people who have attended and I came up with the fact that it was weird all on my own. She thinks that is still because people on the web are lying and painting it to be something it is not. I was trying to be respectful and I knew she couldn't talk much about the temple happenings but I finally told her I could never ever get past the idea that a person has to know special handshakes to get into heaven, we didn't really talk on the temple beyond that.

I feel bad for causing my parents pain because I know this is not at all what they expected of me but I told them I have to live a true, honest life and not fake it. Of course none of the 3 family members had heard anything about JS's herd of wives, BoA, Mark Hoffman, Adam-God, JS's gun in Carthage, etc. I do still want to be respectful of the things they believe but I wish they would look into those things for themselves and realize I'm not a fool who believes everything they read on the internet(I made sure to repeatedly reference documentation for many of my issues) and that I'm not being convinced by anti groups trying to drag me down.

Anyhow, my question to yall is, please tell me I'm not crazy for believing the last 100 people that said it and confirm if the pre 1990 death oaths and naked under the poncho is legit or not???


ronas
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
The naked under the poncho thing was for the initiatory session which be where you were out of context is talking with them. (They are probably thinking of the endowment session.) Here's how it worked:

You went into a room with someone of the same sex as you - for some parts it was just you for some parts it was two of them.

The said a washing prayer over you while washing each part of the body named. When they did loins they touched a spot on your belly maybe six inches from your genitals. Plus they washed lots of other spots, like breat - a finger on the sternum, ears, legs, arms, etc. Then they repeated to whole thing for the anointing.

This changed much later than 1990 - maybe 6 years ago when all the sex abuse scandals were hitting the fan in the Catholic church.

For them to think the modern temple ceremony has any connection at all to Solomon's temple is complete ignorance on there part. The workings of Solomon's temple is well documented and is nothing like the modern lds service.

My first temple experience was 1990 so unfortunately I can't speak first hand on the death oaths, but yes they happened. Basically what happened is every time you were told a token/name and promised not to reveal it you made a slit mark across your throat indicated that you would die if you revealed it - however it would be very easy to interpret this as a spiritual death instead of a physical death. It was a symbolic thing - I believe there was also something where you did a symbol of cutting your guts at as part of it...

The temple is weird but there is lower hanging fruit for Mormon problems.


baura
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
The date of the big changes in the Endowment were 1990

The date that fits Mormons' memory of it best is 1984

I went through the endowment before the 1990 changes. I dutifully pantomimed slitting my throat, cutting my guts out and the rest and was told that these symbolized ways the life could be taken. I said, in unison with everyone else there, "rather than do so I would suffer---my life---to be taken."

Then I was told, "that will do."


Mia
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
You are not crazy! Poncho, LEGIT. I was there, I know for a fact that what you've read is how it happened. I was there in 1973. I was 18. It was one of the most unexpected and humiliating things i've been through. I've had babies and breast cancer. Both are things that you are stripped naked for. The difference is you know what's going to happen next. You are in agreement.
the temple, no warning, no clue. It felt more like a bad doctor visit than anything else.
I shocks me that people deny that whole thing. How dare they try to make the truth tellers out as liars. Either they were so traumatized by it they blocked it out, or they are flat out lying.
Horrible how people who lie can make perfectly sane people feel like they are going crazy. It happens so often. In fact if i'm feeling off balance about something the first thing i ask myself is if someone is lying to me about something. Amazing how many times the answer is yes.

I for got about the death oaths. I remember thinking that since I had no idea what I was going to promise, it didn't apply to me. I was shocked that anyone would think they would be killed or have to kill themselves over a couple of handshakes. Dumb.


Romy
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
oops, I should have clarified...when they said no I made sure to ask them if it was at the very beginning when being washed, not the whole time...still got a denial of it happening.


baura
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Another point--

Your parents went though the temple BEFORE the 1990 changes. That means they DID pantomime the death oaths and promise "not to reveal . . ."

So, I guess by denying it to you they are living up to their pre-1990 covenants. Admitting that the online accounts are correct would be one way of revealing it, which they covenanted never to do.


Fetal Deity
I was touched nakedly
I went through the temple for the first time in the early 1980's and never attended after the big changes were made in 1990.

beatnik
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
I first attended the temple in 1979, pre-mission. You are correct about the "poncho". It was akin to those little robes people wear in the hospital for an operation, except that instead of being open in the back, it was open on both sides. I don't know how it's done now, but that's how it was then.

The death oaths were definitely still in force at that time. I lived in Provo and Orem while attending BYU and teaching at the MTC, and visited the temple there many times. How can I ever forget all the times I listened to and participated in the ritualistic, symbolic slitting of my own throat, ripping my heart out, and disemboweling myself, were I to reveal the secret tokens of the priesthood?

Of course you can read the whole thing now, but as I recall, the words spoken by the narrator, and which we were to repeat in our minds, were to the effect that, "rather than reveal the (first or second) token of the (Aaronic or Melchisedek) priesthood, I would suffer (short pause while moving the hands into position), my life (short pause while sliding the hand across the throat, chest, or stomach area), to be taken (hands drop to side while saying those last 3 words).

Was it real? Of course it was real. Anyone old enough to have been there knows that. Your folks may have forgotten about it by now. Who knows?

I guess all that matters really is that it was real, and you are right about that and a good many other things.


Romy
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Thanks for the affirmations :) It is hard for me to see people I know that have been through the endowment session (and praise it or keep returning for more) quite the same anymore now, knowing what I know. I feel like some of them have got to be suffering in silence and I so wish I could get in their heads and know their thoughts.

I am so glad I never went through, I can't imagine having that memory and feeling what seems like a total loss of control.

Daily I think, thank goodness for the internet!! I would be lost without the personal accounts and info I have been able to find on the web that I would never have known about before the internet age.

I am also really really glad to be single and childless because I cannot imagine the stress of those things being involved during this experience.


Romy
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Thanks for the affirmations :) It is hard for me to see people I know that have been through the endowment session (and praise it or keep returning for more) quite the same anymore now, knowing what I know. I feel like some of them have got to be suffering in silence and I so wish I could get in their heads and know their thoughts.

I am so glad I never went through, I can't imagine having that memory and feeling what seems like a total loss of control.

Daily I think, thank goodness for the internet!! I would be lost without the personal accounts and info I have been able to find on the web that I would never have known about before the internet age.

I am also really really glad to be single and childless because I cannot imagine the stress of those things being involved during this experience.


Tahoe Girl
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
My first time through was 1981. Yes, I was naked under the poncho with open sides. Yes, they put water and oil on me. None of my "private areas" were ever touched.

And yes, I pantomimed the throat slitting, chest slicing and gut ripping death oaths.

Your parents have not forgotten. They're likely just embarrassed and don't want to admit that they took part in such weirdness.

TG


Romy
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
**sorry for the multiple posts..I'm new to this board

Thanks for the affirmations :) It is hard for me to see people I know that have been through the endowment session (and praise it or keep returning for more) quite the same anymore now, knowing what I know. I feel like some of them have got to be suffering in silence and I so wish I could get in their heads and know their thoughts.

I am so glad I never went through, I can't imagine having that memory and feeling what seems like a total loss of control.

Daily I think, thank goodness for the internet!! I would be lost without the personal accounts and info I have been able to find on the web that I would never have known about before the internet age.

I am also really really glad to be single and childless because I cannot imagine the stress of those things being involved during this experience.


Dave the Atheist
"against the rules to look up the endowment ceremony on the internet "
Is that doctrine or is that folklore ?
Romy
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
I would be embarrassed too!

I was talking to a nevermo friend who said he was proud of me for doing this because it must be difficult and he thought it was cool I was figuring out my own beliefs but he maintained he still never had an issue with any mormons he has known or understood why it gets called a cult but if it wasn't right for me, then good for me for being able to stand up for that.

I gave him a really condenced version of how I changed my mind and he asked me what does go in in the temple? I told him its chants, oaths, handshakes etc. and he says he thinks he has seen this somewhere before with a woman doing handshakes through a sheet. I told him that was on Big Love and he was like oh ya...wait, I thought that was fictional!? He was pretty freaked out when I told him nope, that is legit.

lol, his stance quickly went from 'mormonism still seems as normal as any other religion but if it doesn't work for you thats cool' to 'OMG, thank goodness you got out of that cult!'


Romy
Re: "against the rules to look up the endowment ceremony on the internet "
good question.

I would guess its not official doctrine since its only been an issue the last under 20 years since the internet came about, but I was definitely told by a YM leader it was a sin to look it up (who knows where she got her info) and that we aren't supposed to know anything about it until we go ourselves. I truly felt something bad would happen to me if I were to look it up. Ah, indoctrination.

Now I wish I hadn't been such a goody goody and looked it up years ago.


Tahoe Girl
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
He probably thought it was fictional because it seemed too bizarre to be real.

Stupid cult.

TG


Romy
lying for the lord and didn't even know it
I also felt like a fool when I found that out because I had previously told a coworker we did no such thing. Well, there was a technicality, but still.

I heard him talking with another coworker about a possible career move to Utah but wondering what the culture with so many LDS would be like. The other guy told him he should take the job and he might even end up naked in the temple with all the other mormons.

I was still a clueless-on-many-things-TBM at that time and turned around to tell him btw, I am mormon and we don't do that. They both had a look of panic and were like oh, uh, oops.

Shortly after I told a nevermo friend about this thinking that seemed like a real stretch of a mormon myth because we are the prudest people around yet they think we get naked in our most sacred place?? Come to find out he wasn't too far off.


eskimogirlfriend
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
I went through in 2000 and the initiatory was still done nude with the "shield" (that was the official name of the big sheet or poncho). I was also helped into my garments by two old women, underneath the shield. From what I've heard recently, you now put on your own garments back in the changing area.

It was definitely weird and creepy and entirely inappropriate that they force you to go through with all of that with absolutely no warning at all. I wish I had had the guts to walk out immediately.


anagrammy
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Other threats from the temple are that if they do not live up to the covenants that they make in "this temple, YOU WILL BE IN MY POWER" says Satan closeup and threatening.

This is the origin of many mormon responses which mystify some, like why does everyone keep saying I am under the control of Satan?

I also was touched naked under a "shield" and was shaking with fear. I was very puzzled about being asked if I wanted to "withdraw", i.e., back out because the oaths I was about to take were so important to be kept...without being told what they were. It made no sense to me, but being a good little person watching the Emperor parading by naked, I looked around and no one else was saying anything, so I said nothing.

Wish now that I had asked for full disclosure before I decided whether to withdraw or not.

Anagrammy


Romy
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
It is really terrible they put people in a place where they feel so helpless.


onendagus
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
I could tell you about it but "Rather than do so, I suffer, my life, to be taken".

1983 here. Slit yer throat, slice yer chest and cut yer guts. The reason they are mad is because they haven't been able to properly condition er I mean prepare you for the fraternity clown outfits and pranks. Usually there is enormous social pressure (mission, impending marriage) that makes people just go through with it. Plus humans are amazingly adaptable to going with the flow if others they trust are doing it.

And if you want to know why they are so concerned and lying about it now, just know it is their modus operandi. Here is what Steve Hassan has to say about high control groups and how they operate. This is from his BITE model:

Information Control

1. Use of deception

a. Deliberately holding back information

b. Distorting information to make it acceptable

c. Outright lying

2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged

a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio

b. Critical information

c. Former members

d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think

3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines

a. Information is not freely accessible

b. Information varies at different levels and missions within
pyramid

c. Leadership decides who “needs to know” what

4. Spying on other members is encouraged

a. Pairing up with “buddy” system to monitor and control

b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership

5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda

a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes,
etc.

b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult
sources

6. Unethical use of confession

a. Information about “sins” used to abolish identity
boundaries

b. Past “sins” used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness
or absolution


OlderThandirt
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
My wife and I were married in the temple in 1961.

Yes. Being naked under the "shield" and all the stupid blood oaths were DEFINITELY performed.

It was the most infantile process that I've ever been through. And there was no advance warning of what was going to happen.

We came to our senses and have been out of the cult for 40 years now!


loveskids
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Married in 1972 when I had just turned 20. Had NO clue what went on in the Temple. The naked washing was humiliating and scary. I didn't know what they were going to do to me next. Slit your throat,slice your chest and rip your guts out. How special and lovely and Christ like. I always hated the temple and in my 37 years being temple worthy I probably went 2 dozen times only.
templeendumbed
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
I went through in 86 for the first time in SLC. Side slit poncho was used, but I don't think they touched my junk for anointings. We definitely did all of the death oaths for the various tokens of the aaronic and melch penishood. I can clearly remember coming home from mission and being in temple sessions where temple workers were focused on making sure that people didn't do the death oaths anymore once the changes were made. It was very obvious that everyone there was confused and was thinking that the officiators had made an error. I was certainly one of them since I had made the attempt to be a super mormon and had nearly memorized the whole thing. oh christ what and idiot I was.

You probably came across this, but the best example to demonstrate that js was full of crap on the temple ceremony was that he included the 5 points of fellowship at the veil. This was eliminated in the 1990 changes. However this 5 points crap was a very late addition to free masonry and certainly did not go back to solomon.

Sorry your parents would lie to you, but I'm sure my parents were too far into the cult to be honest with me as well - you're not alone.


amos2
I didn't mind the shield/washing/annointing
I found it somewhat profound, like at a hospital.
To say "naked" is a bit of an overstatement. You donned the shield in the locker room in a private stall. Walking around in the shield wasn't naked, it covers you from your shoulders to your knees. It's not secured shut on the sides but it has enough slack that it lays shut.
The washer/annointer never actually sees you naked, he just reaches in the side and touches your flank while referring to your "loins".
I think as a relgious ritual it's kind of interesting.

My point is...even if there were NOTHING offensive about mormon rituals or doctrines...they're still FAKE.

The fundamental problem with the temple is that it pretends to "place you under oath", "covenant", or "obligation" by the authority of God, when in fact it does no such thing. It's a manmade fake, a fraud, no matter how PC they try to make it.


Carol Y.
Add me to the list of people who did the naked under the poncho and the death oaths, Dec. 4, 1970. 

dk
If the church can't be completely honest, it should stop selling its product
I never went through the temple and I was appalled when I read about the ceremony.

I know the church hides what goes on in the temple as sacred. However, I say, if they can't be completely open and honest, then stop the missionaries, stop the commercials, and stop selling the product.


hello
Re: Add me to the list of people who did the naked under the poncho and the death oaths, Dec. 4, 1970.
Me too, in '71 I think.


alex71ut
Shield, not poncho
I think it was around 2003-2004 that the church changed the initiatories' process to no longer touch around 15 parts of the body during the washings and then the annointings. Yes it looked like a poncho but the proper term was Shield. I don't know why we called it a Shield but we just did. In booth #1 you'd sit on a stool in nothing but the shield for the washings by worker #1. Then worker #2 would come in and give you a blessing with worker #1 assisting. Next worker #2 takes you to booth #2 where you'd sit on a stool once again in nothing but the shield for the annointings with oil by worker #2. Then worker #3 would come in and give you a blessing with worker #2 assisting. Next worker #3 takes you to booth #3 where you carefully put on the garment under the shield as worker #3 respects your privacy and explains to you that you (for and in behalf of the dead person) must wear this garment until you have finished your work on the earth. Then you change out of the garment which you leave in booth #3 and then prepare to be taken by the worker in booth #1 for the washings in behalf of the next dead person on the list.
DNA
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
I went through in the mid-eighties. I am a very honest person, and I take promises made by me extremely serious. When I got to the parts promising the slice myself open and kill myself, I gulped and thought “Will I really do this”, then due to peer pressure and a belief that this was important to do, I decided to myself that yes I really would and said yes.

I didn’t want to put myself in a position of having to kill myself, especially in such a gruesome manner, but I knew that if I made the promise, I would really do it. I’m that kind of person. It ruined the whole thing for me, knowing that I was now under such an obligation. If I was the type of person who could think, no I’m not really go to ever do this to myself, then I could have just shrugged it off. But if I promised it, then I’d have to do it.

I was surprised when on the KSL News comments section when I once exposed those oaths, that everyone said that I was a liar. Many said that they went through prior and they swore that I was lying. I was shocked that THEY would lie about it. Then I decided that perhaps they really don’t remember.

Our memories are designed in such a way that we tend to remember more recent things better. People can usually remember their phone number that they’ve had for the past 10 years better than the one from 30 years ago. The new one tends to write over the old one. It isn’t always the case, but it tends to be that way.

So people who have gone back over and over to the Temple for the past 22 years might really not think that it was ever different than what they are doing now. Because of how the oath impacted me, I still very much remember the new, even though I kept going back in the 90’s. However, I don’t remember the washings as well.


deconverted2010
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
You'll find this post from Richard Packham interesting..

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,445374,445403#msg-445403

I went through the temple in the mid 90's, 95 I think. I had to go throug the washing and annointing with a shield (poncho open on both sides) on me, otherwise I was naked. I also had a worker put a garment on me. I felt very uncomfortable with all but kept thinking on this being true and waiting for revelation a the temple.

I hear that now the washing and annointing still uses a shield over a naked body, but he shield is closed on the sides and the person being washed puts their own garments on.

I didn't do death oaths but I knew there were changes. I had not clue what it was, I just remember a Sunday in the late 80's endowed members were asked to fill a survey. Then a year or two later I heard people being encourage to come to the temple and that they would really love it now.


Otremer
Mormonism: Just remember this.
As a rule of thumb, if you think Mormonism couldn't possibly be that weird or depraved, you're probably wrong and anybody who tells you otherwise is probably lying.

cludgie
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Things in regard to Freemasonry and Mormonism: The LDS temple ceremony has nothing--NOTHING--to do with the temple of Solomon, and that is more of a mistake of Freemasonry than of Mormonism. Any Jewish scholar can tell you about Solomon's temple, and it is all well documented. A whole sub-group of Freemasons believe that the solemn ceremony has its roots in the Jewish temple ceremonies, but it doesn't. It has its roots only in European stone masonry from the Middle Ages, first a way of initiating journeymen masons so that when they traveled for their 2-year stint to work for other master masons they would be able to show in a handshake how much or what they knew. The whole thing erupted into the masonic guilds and social clubs and took on a life of its own much later. So the need to link it to the temple of Solomon verifies that the LDS temple ceremony is directly linked to Freemasonry.

A second item is that if Freemasonry is "of the devil," then Joseph Smith et al. were all practicing Satan-worship. Your parents need to take a trip to Nauvoo and a tour of the Masonic temple built by Smith. LDS senior missionaries will gladly tell you that the brethren were Masons and that they built the temple. (Missionaries reveal nothing about linking it to the Nauvoo temple itself, and likely don't even know.) So was Smith a Satan worshiper? The original LDS temple ceremony was nothing less than "Craft Lodge" or "Blue Lodge" Masonic induction and was first used exclusively to introduce men only to the "New and Everlasting Covenant" of marriage and to swear them to secrecy, hence the death oaths. Then it took decades for it to morph into what it is now. Even using it as a place to seal blood families together for eternity came decades later and is a relatively modern concept in the Mormon church. Good Mormons are loathe to admit that their church morphs from concept to concept, but we are all witnesses of that right now.

As for other things like the naked washings and anointings, the death oaths, no Mormons I know personally will admit to that, no matter how many times they did it themselves. It is apparently just too sensitive for them. But it's quite well documented, and there are many of us here who have done them. The older ones, like Richard P. and those in their mid-70s remember the day when you REMOVED the "shield" (white poncho) and stood naked over a drain while they washed you somewhat more thoroughly than later. I don't want to say that your parents are liars, but they are "lying for the Lord" in this regard. I doubt that they just no longer remember.


2thdoc
April 8, 1981
I had NO idea what I was in for, and the first thing the temple worker said to me in the locker room was, "get naked as a jay bird, put this shield over you, and follow me."
scooter
your parents are lying.
If you want their respect, you should call them on it.
ronas
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Things still in the temple today:

1) You promise to sacrifice everything you have, even your own life if necessary to the church (worded as kingdom of god on earth).

2) You promise to consecrate everything with which the Lord has blessed you to the church.

So you promise all of your possessions and your life to the church in the temple even today.

Also you promise to not participate in loud laughter or any other unholy practice.


looking in
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
My family were converts, and didn't stick with it long enough for me to even get close to being old enough to attend the temple.

But I do remember going to Calgary from Edmonton with my mom and dad when I was a kid once, and being left with my aunt and uncle overnight while my parents "went on a trip". When they returned, my mom was very tense and short, and not long after that we stopped attending the lds.

In retrospect, I think my mom and dad must have gone to Cardston, which had the only temple in Alberta at that time, to take out endowments, My mom was already not much in favour of this mormon business, so the temple ceremony (pre-1990) would have put her over the top!


Greyfort
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Totally legit. I took my Endowments out in 1989. The naked thing during my Initiatories was so awkward. I'm hard of hearing, so when they whispered everything to me, I couldn't understand a thing they said. Even though they'd pinned a note on me stating that I was hard of hearing, they wouldn't get any louder.

The death oaths in the Endowment session scared the crap out of me. It took all of my energy not to bolt from that room. I thought, "I'm not doing this!" but there seemed to be nowhere to run and so I somehow got through it.

I didn't even care that they changed things after that. I was just really relieved that I didn't have to do that again.


Greyfort
Re: my TBM family has selective memory of the temple, need yall to confirm a few things for me
Good point, Baura. But instead of downright lying, they could simply say, "Honey, I can't talk about that. It's sacred." They could add that it's actually a covenant not to talk about it, but not essential to add that part.

I'm shocked by the lies too. Hello? I was there! They're lying to my face and they know it.

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"