"Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
by Changed Man Apr 2012
I was subjected to listening to Conference at home last weekend, and in the Saturday morning session, Donald L. Hallstrom of the Presidency of the Seventy stood up and spoke about being converted to the gospel. It was the normal fluff and crap, but I bristled when he said:
"We often wonder: How can someone be fully active in the Church as a youth and then not be when they are older?
How can an adult who has regularly attended and served stop coming? How can a person who was disappointed by a leader or another member allow that to end their Church participation? Perhaps the reason is they were not sufficiently converted to the gospel—the things of eternity."
Excuse me? I said, "Ouch," out loud, and DW caught it. Later she asked me to come upstairs, and she asked me about it. I told her it was extremely offensive to me. She said Mr. Hallstrom was a stupid "Utah Mormon" who should have been pulled aside by the Brethren and set straight. I agreed, but did anyone do that, or did they let his insulting, cult-mindset viewpoint stand as an example to the believers? Anyone? Anyone? Nope.
For the record, I was 100% committed and bought into it hook, line, and sinker for 30 years, complete with mission, temple marriage, callings, FHE, scripture reading, etc. It was my commitment to the truth and seeking further light and knowledge that led me to the unvarnished facts. I was converted to the gospel and church, but now I'm converted to the truth. Big difference, Mr. Hallstrom.
almostThere
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Haha, I let a similar exclamation loose at that moment! I'm done subjecting myself to this.
sexismyreligion
If you ever leave Mormonism, you must not have been sufficiently brainwashed-I mean converted, in the first place.
foggy
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
So this must be the new way of saying someone was offended and that's why they stopped going.
All the exmo's I know in person (and posting here) were very committed to the church, which is why it hit them so hard when they learned of all the lies.
This just sounds like another way for all the current members to feel better than everyone else.
Mia
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
+1
sdee
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Exactly.
almostThere, same - that was one line of many that made me decide I am not going to watch conference anymore.
What angered me more than the "not sufficiently converted" though were the asinine reasons he gave. "How can a person who was disappointed by a leader or another member allow that to end their Church participation?"
There it is - the misconceptions that are deliberately (or are they really just that stupid? I don't know) perpetuated over the pulpit.
Actually I guess I'm kind of glad for it cause I now have a clear example to show my brother. He disagreed with me that the brethren do this.
Bryan O'Neil
Same old song and dance
It's called the "you never REALLY had a testimony" clause.
You can serve the corporation like a slave all your life. You can do everything they tell you...you can really believe it all. Yet if you waiver and doubt then that proves you never really were converted to it.
The purpose of this type of thinking it that it allows Mr. Hallstrom the pleasure of seeing himself as superior to those who leave the church. It perpetuates the idea that those who leave Mormonism are weak people.
In Evangelical Christianity there is a similar way of thinking. If you accept Jesus and then stop going to church then you were never "really saved".
The Man in Black
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
I couldn't disagree more. The only way I could become as diametrically opposed to this church as I am was to first give my whole life to it. Otherwise I wouldn't feel like it tried to take my life from me. Those that weren't converted in the first place are probably more able to stay in it since it was never able to do them much harm.
We who were told--and believed--that it would be better to die than come home early from a mission were more committed, and therefore significantly more harmed by the irrational, unsafe, unrealistic and untrue teachings of this insidious institution.
summer
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Dorothy had a firm testimony of the Wizard of Oz before she saw the man behind the curtain.
atheist&happy:-)
More like not sufficiently brainwashed....
Sure, we are stupid, and shortsighted. We trade worldly things for the things of eternity, pottage for a birthright, and so on. It has NOTHING to do with TSCC being a fraud.
This has been their viewpoint ever since I can remember. They pooh-pooh why people leave, and tell the sheeple the reasons are always petty, because they cannot afford to acknowledge the real reasons. It's amazing to me she thinks they would pull him aside, and "set him straight". Any GA could have given that talk, and probably has said something similar. Does she know what church she belongs to?
sexismyreligion
If you've read the book 1984
It's like the girl in the book 1984 who just doesn't think it matters if the government is telling the truth or not. She can't understand why Winston even cares about the little scrap of paper that proved they were lying. Those are the people who can break the rules, but never really break free of the system. We're the ones who actually care about whether or not it's true and actually were converted. Hallstrom has it backwards.
JoD3:360
Remember- if the Holy Ghost does not witness this as truth,
then Hallstrom is only speaking as the just-a-man that he is.
So what about those who follow the spirit and join a different church? Are they not sufficiently converted to God?
And what if you switch from a long tradition of buying one brand of car and start driving something else? Is it a question about your commitment to driving?
Makurosu
No valid reason for leaving -- sign of a cult.
Mia
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
If I wasn't sufficiently converted then why was I baptized and confirmed?
given a temple recommend for 23 years
allowed to do temple work for others
why did they take my money?
allowed to have my children baptized?
sealed to an army of people?
given callings, many were teaching their kids.
allowed to take the sacrament.
give talks, lessons, prayers.
asked to clean the building?
allowed to teach gospel doctrine/ RS/ seminary?
given a patriarchal blessing?
allowed at step sons/ nieces/nephews weddings?
and on and on and on.................
Changed Man
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
I agree. DW and her family are cafeteria Mormons, so they can pick and choose what to believe and not believe, so they don't get as bent out of shape by the stupid stuff that goes on or is taught. For those of us who were totally committed, the more we bought into it, the more we lost when the truth came out.
Raptor Jesus
Why would the Brethren pull him aside and set him straight?
He's just regurgitating everything they've been saying for decades.
order66
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Conference talks are reviewed and approved before being given at conference. The "brethren" did not take him aside and set him straight.
Mia
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Anyone of them would have said the same thing. Same with the printing press/dictionary comment. It's how they think.
CA girl
Sorry but I think Hallstrom has a point
I was exactly like you guys - I gave 100 percent to the church and bought into everything hook, line and sinker. I graduated from BYU, served a mission, married in the temple, served as a RS president, Primary president and other callings that took huge portions of my time because I really believed. And yet...
There remained a part of me that valued truth over Mormonism. A part of me that recognized rational, intelligent information when it was presented to me. A part of me still had too much integrity to live a lie. We all know TBMs that have killed that personal spirit in themselves in order to pursue Mormonism. They've killed their ability to face the truth to please the Mormon God. Here at RfM, we had the essential humanity to take a stand, do what's right and use our brains and Mormonism wasn't able to convert that out of us.
Now I realize there are currently some Mormons just like I was - giving 100 percent and just don't know what I know now. I'm not saying all Mormons are inhuman. I sure wasn't. I was just ignorant. But when I became informed, I wasn't so converted I couldn't do the right thing. If Mr. Hallstrom wants to say I wasn't converted enough, he should go for it. And in response, I will stand up and take a bow. Because it's a supreme compliment, in my opinion.
Changed Man
I suppose it is a great compliment.
Well said. I was 100% converted, but not brainwashed. The brainwashed and brain dead will stay, while those with a commitment to truth and integrity will move on.
anonymous
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
"She said Mr. Hallstrom was a stupid "Utah Mormon" who should have been pulled aside by the Brethren and set straight. I agreed, but did anyone do that, or did they let his insulting, cult-mindset viewpoint stand as an example to the believers? Anyone? Anyone? Nope."
The brethren will not set him straight. This viewpoint originated with the brethren and has continually been taught by the brethren.
jon1
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Changed Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
She said Mr. Hallstrom was a
> stupid "Utah Mormon" who should have been pulled
> aside by the Brethren and set straight.
Where do the "brethren" and the "profit" live now? They are the ultimate "Utah Mormons"...
Tauna
If I was not sufficiently converted, then the church should want to return my tithing money
They wouldn't want to keep money from people that weren't really converted to the gospel, would they?
After I left, my sister told me, "you were never really 'in' the church."
It really pissed me off. I had always had issues with the church, but had done everything I thought I was supposed to.
I didn't think people that were not really converted or never really 'in' would give 10% of their tithing, not run screaming from the temple when I was told to get naked and then rubbed down by an 80 year old woman, wear the most gawdawful underwear, support m husband in the bishopric and HC with 4 very young, demanding children at home, go to church every Sunday when I would really have rather just been at home or at a park with my family. I was converted...I just didn't like it.
This is something the church is going to push to make the 'sufficiently converted' members feel better about themselves. Hallstrom knows it's a lie, but he doesn't care.
frankie
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
I'm BIC. But growing up mormon, i was often depressed that life was no fun, my parents wore these awful underwear. I accepted the joe smith story, but I did not care. I had no interest in the mormon church and was very embarassed by it. I did not grow up in the morridor, so my family's mormonism was a secret. I would of died if anyone found out. I did not mind mainstream christian teaching and anything bibical. anything that deviated from mainstream christianity and was mormon, I distanced myself from it. I would go through the motions every sunday, and that is all I could handle. Of course activites and seminary was awful. But I still believed in the docterine, and made no effort to care if it was true or not.
As I got older and people found out I was mormon they would ask me if we believe in this or that. I always said no. I was never taught that. This left them confused and me ashamed of myself. Then I got my own computer and researching is so easy. Now i know the mormon history that I was taught was white washed. This made me bitter and I hate LDSinc. Now I'm just christian. I often look at those LDS members who took everything literally and had 8 kids and served missions and bought 11 passenger vans with LDS bumper stickers on them. I ask myself, why would one be so stupid and do something because you were told to. I thought most of these people were smart, and it made me look dumb. I'm 37 and single with a good job. Well I guess I'm way smarter than the mormons and know how to get out of a cult. So I guess I was never converted to mormonism.
hello
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Could it be that a person could have once been very converted and committed, but then left because to stay would be to put their family at risk?
Early apostles were deeply committed and converted in Nauvoo, but then left because Joseph Smith wanted to have secret sex with their wives.
They had to leave to protect their loved ones.
I did the same. The LDS priesthood can go rogue, and present a clear danger to people's families. To stay active in such a circumstance would be folly. And of course, since such things are not supposed to even happen in the Lord's true church, they can be testimony killers too.
Quiet Apostate
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
I dont think most people leave TSCC because they were offended. I do, however, know of many people who began serious investigation into church doctrine and history after being offended. Sometimes its that WTF moment of being offended that makes a person wonder why in the world she belongs to TSCC anyway. I guess I am saying that sometimes its a moment of offense that sparks someone to finally step back and take a more objective look at things... and we all know what serious investigation leads to.
niki77
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Maybe I was never fully converted either! I was BIC but never believed the first vision... I found it fascinating but I always wondered why Joe Smith was so special to have God and Christ come to him. I also didn't like JS. He always bothered me and I hated how the people in the church worshipped him. I felt like they put him above Christ. This was all when I was a kid and a teenager.
Now I'm 35, leaving the church and happy to finally know why I always thought JS was scum and a conman. I had my 3 kids, but never wanted more like my TBM friend. I also work full-time and love it, despite the same friend telling me "the prophet says moms are supposed to stay home with their kids". Why so my daughter can learn to be submissive and dependant on a man? No thanks... I would rather teach her to be independant and empowered. So although I went to church every week, paid my tithing, had a TR (although I've only been a handful of times) and desperately tried to believe in the gospel, I guess I was never fully converted and I am fine with that!
cludgie
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
The man's an ass. What can you say?
PapaKen
Not sufficiently knowledgeable
And if any of those of us who have left were to return to LD$, Inc, it would mean S/he is "not sufficiently knowledgeable" of the facts.
Mia
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
That is exactly how it happened with me. My world collided with a stake president that was so out of line I had to start researching many areas of the church to save my sanity.
That stake president has probably led more people out of the church than I could ever hope to.
Quiet Apostate
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
And once you start researching its almost creepy how the lies, manipulations, and behaviors of current leaders mirrors that of early church leaders. Seems that every day some Bishop is in the news for scamming his ward members in real estate or MLM/ponzi schemes... just like Joseph Smith. Or some local Bishop or stake pres is threatening to ex or crush a church member who dares to expose or call bull @#$%& on the heavy-handedness... just like Brigham Young and others. Once you have been confronted, or yes even offended, by one of these "bretheren" the pattern of manipulation and control they have over you is so much more evident.
Greyfort
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
People would hang off of my testimony when they were feeling theirs weaken. I was called a rock.
From what I've seen on this forum over the past few years that I've been here, I think many of us fell into that category.
I love when you said, " I was converted to the gospel and church, but now I'm converted to the truth. Big difference, Mr. Hallstrom."
Exactly.
goldarn
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Ironically, someone like me who went on a mission, volunteered to set up chairs, took callings and filled them, but left the church are considered "not fully converted."
Someone who didn't go on a mission, never helps out when the Church asks, never does their calling, no HT/VT, etc., but stays in the church is considered a Mormon in good standing as long as they've paid enough tithing to get a recommend.
This is why I don't mind hurling insults their way. The GAs love to hurl insults at us, and to quote Irwin "Fletch" Fletcher, "It takes a big man to admit he's wrong. I am not a big man."
onendagus
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
If anyone tries to tell me that, i plan to say: 'I know it is threatening to have someone reject your world view, so I understand your need to think that way."
spanner
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
Yep,
I agree with several commentators so far, those who were most engaged by the church are most likely to be damaged by it and be posting here.
People who were "meh" in the first place would not be bothered.
Most of us are not just exmos, we are ex-TBMs.
peregrine
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
When I heard that line I kinda felt like the ex-boy friend being kicked to the curb with, "You never really loved me anyway!!"
I guess they have to say something to convince themselves...
Ex-CultMember
Re: "Not Sufficiently Converted" - Ouch!
What he REALLY means is "sufficiently brainwashed."
Its amazing when you just replace their terms with what they REALLY are and your eyes become open to the craziness.
"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"