Thoughts on Correlation

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>by polymath</p>\n<p>I wasn\'t going to church when the last round of manuals came out but it sounds like TSCC [this so called church] is trying to just not discuss anything controversial at all. Which means that they are completely neutralizing the lessons.</p>\n<p>My opinion is that they did some research and found that people were disturbed by the various information they could access through their research (both internet and otherwise) and so they decided to remove that information from the manuals and at the same time forbid any research outside of the approved sources. (which isn\'t new, it\'s just more restrictive now)</p>\n<p>So, what happens is that we now have many, many people who are growing up in the church who have not heard about any of the really controversial subjects as TSCC has decided just to ignore it and not deal with it. There is no spin or justification, just pretend it never happened.</p>\n<p>HOWEVER, at the same time (since the leaders are really just a bunch of businessmen and have no spiritual thoughts) they didn\'t replace the doctrine they removed with anything that\'s meaningful to a person\'s spiritual or intellectual growth. There\'s no real discussion and no free exchange of thought which means that after a while you just suffer through it.</p>\n<p>The problem with this approach is that when someone finally does go looking because they are NOT receiving any further light and knowledge, there\'s a huge amount of information that\'s out there that they were unaware of and it hits them like a ton of bricks.</p>\n<p>As I grew up in the church I knew about most of the controversial stuff (god was once a man, curse of cain, etc.) and so doctrinal issues were not the reason that I chose to leave. However, my daughter who was also BIC did NOT know these things when we talked about problems with the church recently. So within one generation this information has been suppressed as part of daily church doctrine.</p>\n<p>No wonder people feel they\'ve been lied to. Thoughts?</p>\n<hr />\nanother guy<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\n\"There is no spin or justification, just pretend it never happened.\"\n<p>Just like the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 in Communist China. After several hundred (perhaps thousands) of protestors were killed, their government \'correlated\' the issue and pretended that it never happened.</p>\n<hr />\nsam<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nAll controversial stuff is not in the lesson manuals. Also, JS, BY, or Wilford Woodruff (that I have read) are discussed as if they only have one wife. Polygamy is not addressed. It is totally simplified and has been changed to match the mormon story. There are numerous examples\n<hr />\ndr5<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nWhat? How can they ignore polygamy? Especially since it is still being practiced in the afterlife.\n<hr />\nsnowball<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nThey\'ve replaced some of the hard hitting stuff with warm fuzzies. However, they have also been careful not to repudiate any of the old stuff.\n<p>What I\'ve never understood is that the would be reformers within the hierarchy are gutless. The conservatives like Packer, McConkie, Fielding Smith etc have always been forthright in declaring their version of Mormonism. This even when it rankled their superiors for a time. Before long they became the superiors. This went so far that many like me have known no other form of Mormonism than what they put forward. Although, I don\'t totally buy the idea that the McKay era was a Nirvana.</p>\n<p>We often hear through the grapevine that Marlin K. Jensen or some such person is sympathetic to the idea of having the LDS Church open up on history. What\'s stopping him? If Boyd Packer can go off on how Heavenly Father would never make someone gay, why can\'t someone else go a little more off the reservation than Monson is comfortable with? Brother Jensen lay it out in General Conference, write a book something--I double dog dare you. Life is short.</p>\n<hr />\njpt<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nThe mormonism of my youth is now anti-mormon lies.\n<p>I read the letters to the editor of various online newspapers, and that\'s what current mormons say of things that used to be uniquely mormon. \"It\'s all lies, go to mormon.org to learn the real truth about mormonism.\"</p>\n<p>Well... not only correlated, but the historians who were more true to history than they were to dogma were fired and/or excommunicated. BKP said that \"some things that are true are not very useful\".... but those \"not useful truths\" magically transformed from \"not useful\" to being unchallenged lies.</p>\n<p>Still, getting people to actually look at things that they believe came from the pits of hell (aka correlated-out) can be difficult.</p>\n<hr />\npolymath<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nYeah, that\'s exactly what I\'m saying.\n<p>I was taught about all of those guys having multiple wives. I mean, it wasn\'t dwelt on, but it was definitely taught that when the church came to UT that polygamy was practiced for a while.</p>\n<p>How do you pretend that it just didn\'t happen? Because then there\'s just way too much factual information that can be brought up any time that wasn\'t known by most in the church.</p>\n<hr />\nCharley<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\n\"The mormonism of my youth is now anti-mormon lies.\"\n<p>Amen! I think that may be one of the reasons that TBMs don\'t understand why we\'ve left. If you don\'t know the objectionable parts of the religion then you don\'t have anything to object against.</p>\n<hr />\nCA girl<br />\nThat\'s what bugs me<br />\nBy systematically annihilating the Mormonism I was taught growing up, the church has made my beliefs into lies. If I were to talk about things taught in church back in the 1980s, the youth of the church would call me an anti-Mormon liar. Remember the poster who was visited by a missionary who didn\'t know Joseph Smith practiced polygamy? Try telling the average feel-good Mormon of today about my husband pantomiming slitting his own throat as part of the temple endowment session and many adults who went through the temple after 1990 would call those anti-Mormon hate speech. And would tell me to \"ask a Mormon\" for the truth. But the Mormons, especially the under 30 crowd, don\'t KNOW the truth because the church is lying by omission as a corporate policy.\n<hr />\nimalive<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nI absolutely detest correlation. There\'s virtually no depth, or meat, to the damn lessons. Besides that and whitewashing the history, correlation has also killed the great social stuff, like Gold and Green Balls, youth dances, road shows, etc.\n<hr />\nguynoirprivateeye<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nLet the church stop its work of hypnotizing the masses, and deceiving children even for the briefest interval of time, and men would begin to understand Christ’s teaching. But this understanding will be the end of churches and all their influence. And therefore the churches will not for an instant relax their zeal in the business of hypnotizing grown-up people and deceiving children. This, then, is the work of the churches: to instill a false interpretation of Christ’s teaching unto men, and to prevent a true interpretation of it for the majority of so-called believers.<br />\n-Leo Tolstoy, in \'The Kingdom of God Is Within You\'\n<hr />\nmia<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nI was born in the early 50\'s. Nobody ever read the BOM or Bible. Most people didn\'t own those books, or any others. There wasn\'t the information that we now have at the click of a button. People believed whatever they were told to believe in GC talks. A lot of people didn\'t have Tv\'s. They believed what the church magazines told them.\n<p>Nobody EVER mentioned JS having wives other than Emma. Nobody, except some elite few knew the REAL history.College education was only for a few. Women that went to college were rare. If you were a woman and went to BYU it was to look for a husband. There were a few exceptions, but they were rare.</p>\n<p>My generation now has the internet. We are finding out we have been lied to. So many things about the church have either been covered up or lied about.</p>\n<p>I went to all of the church historical sites when I was a teen. I never, ever heard the real story. Carthage, Johnson farm, Nauvoo, newell K. whitney store, Thomas Kane Church, Sacred Grove, Grandin printing, Hill cummorah. NONE of them told the whole story, or the true story.I thought because I had been to these places numerous times that I KNEW the real story of Mormonism. Not so. I only knew the glossed over pretty stories. Can you blame me for feeling lied to?</p>\n<p>The whole story is a fairy tale. A fairy tale that ended up making money. Money corrupted, and still corrupts the mormon church. It is the REAL religion.</p>\n<p>Where history is concerned, I do not trust a single word that comes out of the mouths of leaders in SLC. I think the church realizes this. If you notice TM has almost nothing to say. They have put the clamp down on him. Think about it. Can you think of anything meaningful that he has said since he has been put in the top spot?</p>\n<p>They have gone beyond any credibility. The internet took them off guard. They didn\'t see that coming. No prophecy there. The damage has been done. They will now have to live with the fall out. The good old days of controlling information are over. the leadership hasn\'t yet accepted that. That is a fact, if they like it or not. The lies and omissions are out there for anyone to see. they can\'t put the cat back in the bag.</p>\n<hr />\nmontanaexmo<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nAmen Mia. Well said. The internet will cause more harm to TSCC than anything else. Let\'s hope Romney gets nominated and the net explodes with all of the BS that is moism because the main stream press really starts to look at his family background and his beliefs. Best combination ever. I suspect the leadership in SLC will never want another LDS candidate to run for president and Huntsman will be looming for 2016. I love it that TSCC can\'t control the net and the sheeple can have easy access to so much information, eventually is will erode the membership and foundation of TSCC. Having tried to control information for so many decades it is most fitting that TSCC is about to be hammered by information that they can\'t control.\n<hr />\nanagrammy<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nYour daughter hasn\'t been lied to. Her correlated manuals never said anything like the nasty stuff you\'re bringing out. See her eyes? She thinks YOU\'RE weird making up doctrines to make the church look bad.\n<p>One generation--done.</p>\n<p>Anagrammy</p>\n<p>PS. I\'m still laughing at the poster who said polygamy was still being practiced in heaven!</p>\n<hr />\nmia<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nMy son daughter and husband all left the same day I did.<br />\nI think my daughter is more perceptive than I ever was.<br />\nShe is getting married soon to a never mo. I get to be present for the wedding. I am one lucky exmo.\n<hr />\npolymath<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nMy daughter\'s out. We finally talked about it after some dancing around on her part (I think she was scared I would disapprove even though I\'ve been out for a while). It was great. I told her just a bit of the stuff that I myself LEARNED in church and she was appalled.\n<p>She\'s 22. I bought her first drink during our discussion and she told me that she didn\'t think it was all that and she couldn\'t figure out what the big deal was with the WoW. Made me laugh.</p>\n<hr />\nsherlock<br />\nAmazing Sunday School discussion<br />\nWe had an amazing Book of Mormon adult Sunday School lesson at church on Sunday.\n<p>We spent about 30 minutes discussing and debating the whole Nephite/Laban beheading episode. Clearly a lot of members had issues with this: How could Nephi be so certain it was a command from God? What if a modern day profit had such a revelation, wouldn\'t we lock them up? What does this tell us about the nature of God? Why couldn\'t God have found another way to get the plates? How did Nephi get rid of the blood on Laban\'s clothes and pretend to be Laban etc... A really stirring ad at times, quite heated debate where everyone\'s views were invited and considered.......</p>\n<p>Oh hold on, I\'ve just awoken from my dream. What actually happened was that the teacher spent 10 seconds saying \'and Nephi killed Laban because it was better that one man died rather than a whole nation dwindled in unbelief\'. The class nodded and we moved on to some other dull, correlation-friendly topic.</p>\n<hr />\ngreekgod<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nGod, I love you guys. Just one refreshing post chalk-full of logic and sublime clarity after another.\n<p>Breath in deep, breath out.</p>\n<p>:)</p>\n<hr />\nmia<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nmy daughter is 25. pure joy.<br />\nwe\'ve been trying out champagnes for the wedding.\n<hr />\nmia<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation&nbsp;\n<p>Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2012 01:53AM by mia.</p>\n<p>mia<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nsame to you greek god, {hugs}</p>\n<hr />\nanagrammy<br />\nYou got me! My eyes were widening--I could hardly believe it--ZAP!&nbsp;\n<hr />\nanagrammy<br />\nRe: Thoughts on Correlation<br />\nMia - that is so wonderful about your daughter and her upcoming Mormon. What a tremendous relief to you that she didn\'t stumble blindly on in the fog of unquestioning obedience to strangers who don\'t give a rip about her.\n<p>:)</p>\n<p>Anagrammy</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1490772371, expire = 1490858771, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:b245f23f9570143b6404512219c8d529' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

by polymath

I wasn't going to church when the last round of manuals came out but it sounds like TSCC [this so called church] is trying to just not discuss anything controversial at all. Which means that they are completely neutralizing the lessons.

My opinion is that they did some research and found that people were disturbed by the various information they could access through their research (both internet and otherwise) and so they decided to remove that information from the manuals and at the same time forbid any research outside of the approved sources. (which isn't new, it's just more restrictive now)

So, what happens is that we now have many, many people who are growing up in the church who have not heard about any of the really controversial subjects as TSCC has decided just to ignore it and not deal with it. There is no spin or justification, just pretend it never happened.

HOWEVER, at the same time (since the leaders are really just a bunch of businessmen and have no spiritual thoughts) they didn't replace the doctrine they removed with anything that's meaningful to a person's spiritual or intellectual growth. There's no real discussion and no free exchange of thought which means that after a while you just suffer through it.

The problem with this approach is that when someone finally does go looking because they are NOT receiving any further light and knowledge, there's a huge amount of information that's out there that they were unaware of and it hits them like a ton of bricks.

As I grew up in the church I knew about most of the controversial stuff (god was once a man, curse of cain, etc.) and so doctrinal issues were not the reason that I chose to leave. However, my daughter who was also BIC did NOT know these things when we talked about problems with the church recently. So within one generation this information has been suppressed as part of daily church doctrine.

No wonder people feel they've been lied to. Thoughts?


another guy
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
"There is no spin or justification, just pretend it never happened."

Just like the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 in Communist China. After several hundred (perhaps thousands) of protestors were killed, their government 'correlated' the issue and pretended that it never happened.


sam
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
All controversial stuff is not in the lesson manuals. Also, JS, BY, or Wilford Woodruff (that I have read) are discussed as if they only have one wife. Polygamy is not addressed. It is totally simplified and has been changed to match the mormon story. There are numerous examples
dr5
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
What? How can they ignore polygamy? Especially since it is still being practiced in the afterlife.
snowball
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
They've replaced some of the hard hitting stuff with warm fuzzies. However, they have also been careful not to repudiate any of the old stuff.

What I've never understood is that the would be reformers within the hierarchy are gutless. The conservatives like Packer, McConkie, Fielding Smith etc have always been forthright in declaring their version of Mormonism. This even when it rankled their superiors for a time. Before long they became the superiors. This went so far that many like me have known no other form of Mormonism than what they put forward. Although, I don't totally buy the idea that the McKay era was a Nirvana.

We often hear through the grapevine that Marlin K. Jensen or some such person is sympathetic to the idea of having the LDS Church open up on history. What's stopping him? If Boyd Packer can go off on how Heavenly Father would never make someone gay, why can't someone else go a little more off the reservation than Monson is comfortable with? Brother Jensen lay it out in General Conference, write a book something--I double dog dare you. Life is short.


jpt
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
The mormonism of my youth is now anti-mormon lies.

I read the letters to the editor of various online newspapers, and that's what current mormons say of things that used to be uniquely mormon. "It's all lies, go to mormon.org to learn the real truth about mormonism."

Well... not only correlated, but the historians who were more true to history than they were to dogma were fired and/or excommunicated. BKP said that "some things that are true are not very useful".... but those "not useful truths" magically transformed from "not useful" to being unchallenged lies.

Still, getting people to actually look at things that they believe came from the pits of hell (aka correlated-out) can be difficult.


polymath
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I was taught about all of those guys having multiple wives. I mean, it wasn't dwelt on, but it was definitely taught that when the church came to UT that polygamy was practiced for a while.

How do you pretend that it just didn't happen? Because then there's just way too much factual information that can be brought up any time that wasn't known by most in the church.


Charley
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
"The mormonism of my youth is now anti-mormon lies."

Amen! I think that may be one of the reasons that TBMs don't understand why we've left. If you don't know the objectionable parts of the religion then you don't have anything to object against.


CA girl
That's what bugs me
By systematically annihilating the Mormonism I was taught growing up, the church has made my beliefs into lies. If I were to talk about things taught in church back in the 1980s, the youth of the church would call me an anti-Mormon liar. Remember the poster who was visited by a missionary who didn't know Joseph Smith practiced polygamy? Try telling the average feel-good Mormon of today about my husband pantomiming slitting his own throat as part of the temple endowment session and many adults who went through the temple after 1990 would call those anti-Mormon hate speech. And would tell me to "ask a Mormon" for the truth. But the Mormons, especially the under 30 crowd, don't KNOW the truth because the church is lying by omission as a corporate policy.
imalive
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
I absolutely detest correlation. There's virtually no depth, or meat, to the damn lessons. Besides that and whitewashing the history, correlation has also killed the great social stuff, like Gold and Green Balls, youth dances, road shows, etc.
guynoirprivateeye
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
Let the church stop its work of hypnotizing the masses, and deceiving children even for the briefest interval of time, and men would begin to understand Christ’s teaching. But this understanding will be the end of churches and all their influence. And therefore the churches will not for an instant relax their zeal in the business of hypnotizing grown-up people and deceiving children. This, then, is the work of the churches: to instill a false interpretation of Christ’s teaching unto men, and to prevent a true interpretation of it for the majority of so-called believers.
-Leo Tolstoy, in 'The Kingdom of God Is Within You'
mia
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
I was born in the early 50's. Nobody ever read the BOM or Bible. Most people didn't own those books, or any others. There wasn't the information that we now have at the click of a button. People believed whatever they were told to believe in GC talks. A lot of people didn't have Tv's. They believed what the church magazines told them.

Nobody EVER mentioned JS having wives other than Emma. Nobody, except some elite few knew the REAL history.College education was only for a few. Women that went to college were rare. If you were a woman and went to BYU it was to look for a husband. There were a few exceptions, but they were rare.

My generation now has the internet. We are finding out we have been lied to. So many things about the church have either been covered up or lied about.

I went to all of the church historical sites when I was a teen. I never, ever heard the real story. Carthage, Johnson farm, Nauvoo, newell K. whitney store, Thomas Kane Church, Sacred Grove, Grandin printing, Hill cummorah. NONE of them told the whole story, or the true story.I thought because I had been to these places numerous times that I KNEW the real story of Mormonism. Not so. I only knew the glossed over pretty stories. Can you blame me for feeling lied to?

The whole story is a fairy tale. A fairy tale that ended up making money. Money corrupted, and still corrupts the mormon church. It is the REAL religion.

Where history is concerned, I do not trust a single word that comes out of the mouths of leaders in SLC. I think the church realizes this. If you notice TM has almost nothing to say. They have put the clamp down on him. Think about it. Can you think of anything meaningful that he has said since he has been put in the top spot?

They have gone beyond any credibility. The internet took them off guard. They didn't see that coming. No prophecy there. The damage has been done. They will now have to live with the fall out. The good old days of controlling information are over. the leadership hasn't yet accepted that. That is a fact, if they like it or not. The lies and omissions are out there for anyone to see. they can't put the cat back in the bag.


montanaexmo
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
Amen Mia. Well said. The internet will cause more harm to TSCC than anything else. Let's hope Romney gets nominated and the net explodes with all of the BS that is moism because the main stream press really starts to look at his family background and his beliefs. Best combination ever. I suspect the leadership in SLC will never want another LDS candidate to run for president and Huntsman will be looming for 2016. I love it that TSCC can't control the net and the sheeple can have easy access to so much information, eventually is will erode the membership and foundation of TSCC. Having tried to control information for so many decades it is most fitting that TSCC is about to be hammered by information that they can't control.
anagrammy
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
Your daughter hasn't been lied to. Her correlated manuals never said anything like the nasty stuff you're bringing out. See her eyes? She thinks YOU'RE weird making up doctrines to make the church look bad.

One generation--done.

Anagrammy

PS. I'm still laughing at the poster who said polygamy was still being practiced in heaven!


mia
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
My son daughter and husband all left the same day I did.
I think my daughter is more perceptive than I ever was.
She is getting married soon to a never mo. I get to be present for the wedding. I am one lucky exmo.
polymath
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
My daughter's out. We finally talked about it after some dancing around on her part (I think she was scared I would disapprove even though I've been out for a while). It was great. I told her just a bit of the stuff that I myself LEARNED in church and she was appalled.

She's 22. I bought her first drink during our discussion and she told me that she didn't think it was all that and she couldn't figure out what the big deal was with the WoW. Made me laugh.


sherlock
Amazing Sunday School discussion
We had an amazing Book of Mormon adult Sunday School lesson at church on Sunday.

We spent about 30 minutes discussing and debating the whole Nephite/Laban beheading episode. Clearly a lot of members had issues with this: How could Nephi be so certain it was a command from God? What if a modern day profit had such a revelation, wouldn't we lock them up? What does this tell us about the nature of God? Why couldn't God have found another way to get the plates? How did Nephi get rid of the blood on Laban's clothes and pretend to be Laban etc... A really stirring ad at times, quite heated debate where everyone's views were invited and considered.......

Oh hold on, I've just awoken from my dream. What actually happened was that the teacher spent 10 seconds saying 'and Nephi killed Laban because it was better that one man died rather than a whole nation dwindled in unbelief'. The class nodded and we moved on to some other dull, correlation-friendly topic.


greekgod
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
God, I love you guys. Just one refreshing post chalk-full of logic and sublime clarity after another.

Breath in deep, breath out.

:)


mia
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
my daughter is 25. pure joy.
we've been trying out champagnes for the wedding.
mia
Re: Thoughts on Correlation 

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2012 01:53AM by mia.

mia
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
same to you greek god, {hugs}


anagrammy
You got me! My eyes were widening--I could hardly believe it--ZAP! 
anagrammy
Re: Thoughts on Correlation
Mia - that is so wonderful about your daughter and her upcoming Mormon. What a tremendous relief to you that she didn't stumble blindly on in the fog of unquestioning obedience to strangers who don't give a rip about her.

:)

Anagrammy

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"