Mormon Church: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>by allicat Jan 2012</p>\n<p>Hello there, everyone. I am looking for answers to some doubts I\'ve had, some fears I\'ve realized and even some petty things that are on my mind about the LDS church and my baptism...</p>\n<p>I\'ll give you some background. I\'m 23 years old, single and live in a major metro area in the Midwest. I moved here about a year ago with my best friend. When I was in college, about 2 years ago, I had begun investigating the LDS church with local missionaries, but never attended a service or anything out of fear. I will say that I have always been very strong in my Christian faith but never felt \"aligned\" with any one doctrine.</p>\n<p>I got curious again this year and contacted some missionaries and I\'ve met with them on numerous occasions. I can\'t decide if this is because I really believe what they\'re saying, or because one of the young men is rather dashing. I get the feeling that as they\'re \"teaching\" me, what they\'re really doing is taking my malleable beliefs of what Christianity is and trying to hammer it into the Mormon mold. They have also been a little reluctant to answer my questions concerning more hefty doctrine, like exaltation, especially when I bring things up in a rather confused manner.</p>\n<p>What particularly concerns me as of late is the increasing lack of anthropological evidence for the BoM. I graduated with a B.A. in Anthropology about a year ago, and have never come across any findings that the BoM is true. While the missionaries will deny that it matters, at least with Christianity and other Abrahamic and other religions there are at best artifacts and historical records of the people or stories (excluding the hyperbolic tales of the old testament). I feel as a highly educated person in the field of anthro that I would have come across..well some kind of actual evidence at some point in my studying.</p>\n<p>I feel torn now though, because I have really taken a liking to one of the missionaries. I know that if I don\'t go through with the baptism, I\'ll never see him again, but I really feel that there is something wrong with the church and not of any fault of the missionaries. After my baptism interview where I was prodded about my personal life and dark \"secrets,\" I wondered how any man could deem me \"worthy\" of something.</p>\n<p>While I don\'t have a problem with ceremonial things, something to me seems very wrong and confusing about the whole concept of becoming gods...doesn\'t that inherently go against Christian teachings?</p>\n<p>I really don\'t know what to do. They\'ve got it in my head that I should believe what they\'re telling me but I know something is very wrong.</p>\n<hr />\ndogblogger<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\n<a href=\"http://www.mormonthink.org\" title=\"www.mormonthink.org\">www.mormonthink.org</a> will have useful information on many of your topics of concern.\n<hr />\nhelamonster<br />\nWhy is it so important to them that you get baptized by a certain date?<br />\nThat\'s something you need to think about.\n<p>If everything is really as true as they claim, then they should have absolutely no worries about you postponing your baptism until you feel more comfortable with it. Right?</p>\n<p>Unless, of course, they have something to hide...</p>\n<hr />\nRiverman<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nMormonthink is a great site to look at. It gives you both sides of several issues in the LDS church.\n<p>As far as the missionary goes, he will likely be transferred to a new area very soon. The longest I have heard of a missionary staying in the same place is 9 months. But 4 months is probably close to the average. So baptism or not, you will not be seeing him again anyway.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Devorah<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nHey, for what it\'s worth, no hot guy is worth the \"doh\" of joining the mormon church.<br />\n\'Sides, if he\'s a missionary, there\'s no opportunity for enjoying his hotness anyway.<br />\nThere\'s eyecandy everywhere - don\'t get hung up on a missionary man.</p>\n<hr />\njon1<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nRead all on this link, which is on the home page of this board. <a href=\"http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm\" title=\"http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm\">http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm</a> It will tell you everything you want to know.\n<hr />\n<p>allicat<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nI will definitely check that website out. I\'m mostly just feeling lost, as I was starting to make friends. I lied to the missionary coordinator about my past during my baptism interview (and planned future, frankly) behaviors. All I feel now is guilt and like I\'m not worthy of love from the Creator...like I\'m dirty. Is this their goal?</p>\n<hr />\nscooter<br />\nthey\'re lying.<br />\neven if they don\'t know that what they\'re saying is a lie,\n<p>they\'re still lying.</p>\n<p>you are simply a project to help them earn Celestial brownie points.</p>\n<p>and they will tell you anything to earn those points.</p>\n<hr />\nangelina5<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nFirst of all, you need to make an educated and individual decision. Do your research, I would suggest MORMONTHINK.org for objective and actual facts. Don\'t make a rushed decision. Take your time :-))\n<hr />\najhart<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nBeen there done that- got baptized at 18 on a whim because the missionary was incredibly handsome and charming- now I\'m 19, and a lot smarter...just emailed my resignation last night. Trust me, if you are having ANY doubts at all, you shouldn\'t go through with it. Seriously, once your name is on their records, they will never leave you alone. I was actually raised in the LDS church and let me tell you, it\'s complete B.S. It ruins families, marriages, lives- you name it. I\'d encourage you to keep reading as many posts as you can on this board- these people know what they are talking about! You are SO lucky that you are realizing all this before you formally commit- I have been in your shoes...I wish I would have stopped myself from doing it. It all happened so fast...please, give yourself more time to think about everything!! Any religion that needs a support group has gotta be pretty effed up. Anyways, we are all here for you:)\n<p>Aj</p>\n<hr />\n<p>wittyname<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nEverything in your post seems to imply that you do not believe the Book of Mormon to be true. Mormonism mainly is about, well, mormonsim, not Christianity. If you are looking for a denomination that will enrich your Christian views, you won\'t get that from LDS. One easy way to understand that is by learning about the way LDS observes Easter... Actually, there are many ways to understand the differences between LDS and Christianity.</p>\n<p>You would not be the first girl (or guy) or the 100,000th to convert because of a crush on the missionary. There\'s a reason why \"flirt to convert\" is a common expression. But here\'s he bottom line: you are not very likely to continue having as much attention and interaction with the missionary after you convert. And after he\'s sent elsewhere, or returns to where he came from, then what? You\'ve got a greater chance continuing to see the Missionary if you don\'t convert but continue to participate (till you can\'t any more because it\'s just so strange and fake). Once you convert, he\'ll be on to the next golden contact. And all the attention from the missionaries, and from the ward, wanting to welcome you into their faith, that will dry up too once you get baptized.</p>\n<p>Good luck. Also Helamonster\'s advice is very good here.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Misfit<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nIf you are on an exmormon board looking for answers, that should tell you something right there.</p>\n<p>As a poster on another thread today has so eloquently pointed out, the mormon organization has everything to gain by baptizing you and convincing you to become a member of their church- 10% tithing, another volunteer to do church work, etc. That\'s why they are so persuasive.</p>\n<p>The people who post information online that the church doesn\'t want you to hear have nothing to gain from you.</p>\n<p>Listen to your intuition. Use your education in anthropology, do your own research, and come to your own conclusions.</p>\n<p>I second the recommendation to mormonthink.org</p>\n<hr />\nrodolfo<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nallicat Wrote:<br />\n-------------------------------------------------------\n<p>Exactly. Mormons make their hay by confusing emotion with evidence. They will tell you that you should feel something, and then tell you that what you felt is evidence of the truth of their interpretation. It is cultish, false and manipulative. Shouldn\'t you be convinced by the evidence first, and then come to an emotional appreciation of the verifiable evidence second?</p>\n<p>Mormonthink.org. The overwhelming evidence against the BofM is shocking.</p>\n<p>You won\'t for sure . . but why should this have any bearing on your decision to accept evidence on its own merits or not?</p>\n<p>Not cultish? An iron clad evidence of a cult is the acceptance of behavior in the cult context you would never permit or condone in any other context . . . such as the revelation of personal secrets to strangers for reasons only the cult considers valid.</p>\n<p>Please do nothing. Time, patience and research will prove out the value or lack of value. If mormonism is as important as they say what is the harm in careful and sincere investigation. Note that Catholics and other faiths require UP TO A YEAR of instruction and careful evaluation to be sure you are doing the right thing. Why are the mormons in such a hurray to make the sale??</p>\n<p>Please let us know what happens.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>ronas<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nHere\'s a good place to do some reading: <a href=\"http://20truths.info/\" title=\"http://20truths.info/\">http://20truths.info/</a> If that\'s not enough keep looking there\'s plenty of info out there on the internet. There are lots and lots of issues with the Book of Mormon. Here\'s a very short list:<br />\n1) DNA evidence strongly refutes a link between the American Indians and Jews.<br />\n2) The genealogy timelines and population growth are completely non realistic.<br />\n3) There are many ridiculous stories in the Book of Mormon like a) a guy standing up and gasping for breath after his head gets cut off at the end of a war with 2 million people that just happened to kill everyone on the entire continent except 2 people (Coriantumr &amp; Ether), b) a teenager prophet (Nephi) hearing voices from god and beheading someone (Laban) because Laban wouldn\'t give Nephi something Laban had a legal right to but Nephi wanted. Nephi then put on Laban\'s clothes (no blood from beheading?) and was able to trick Laban\'s close confidant into believing Nephi was Laban and giving Nephi the greatest archeological treasure in the ancient world (a complete copy of the Old Testament hundreds of years before the Old Testament existed.) c) the Jaredite boats - too nutty to even describe succinctly.<br />\n4) There are many references to things like horses, chariots, elephants, wheat, coins, etc. etc. that didn\'t exist on the American continent but that would not be known at the time when the Book of Mormon was written.<br />\n5) The entire contents of the Book of Mormon - 531 pages (plus the 116 lost pages) were supposedly engraved in reformed Egyptian on gold pages the width of tin - the dimensions 6 inches by 8 inches - 2 inches think (2/3 of the 6 inch gold plates were reportedly sealed - to be squeals of the BoM at a later time.) There is no possible way that much Egyptian could fit in that small of a space.</p>\n<p>Here\'s something you need to know about this missionary you like:<br />\n1) Once you get baptized you are going to see a lot less of him. He\'s going to move on to converting other people and leave the ward to fellowship you.</p>\n<p>If you really are so desperate as to want to keep in contact with this missionary the best thing is to \"have some concerns\" and push back your baptismal date which will keep them coming around. You have to bait them that you are close to baptism, but not quite there. If they start to think of you as an \"eternal investigator\" they will move on. If you are really lucky you can get them to start \"camping\" at your house - what missionaries do when they don\'t want to work. Try to get them to watch TV or just hang out and they might start doing that at your place. The fact that you are an investigator helps them rationalize \"camping\" at your place since they\'d rather do that than go out tracting.</p>\n<p>2) Missionaries get transferred around a lot. He\'ll probably only be there another month or so. Once he is transferred there are quite strict rules that he is no longer allowed to be in contact with you - he may break the rules and you may have some minimal contact with him but don\'t count on it.</p>\n<hr />\nazirongrl<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nYour situation is EXTREMELY similar to mine. My missionaries took my Christian beliefs and stuffed them into a Mormon mold until I was convinced.\n<p>Now, it\'s been 11 years, and I\'ve resigned my membership and consider the whole experience to be a tremendous waste of time and energy. I almost lost contact with my family by getting baptized - all for nothing.</p>\n<p>Please don\'t do it. Believe what you believe... don\'t force yourself to be held to any standards set by any organization.</p>\n<hr />\nbaura<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nallicat Wrote:<br />\n-------------------------------------------------------<br />\n&gt; All I feel now<br />\n&gt; is guilt and like I\'m not worthy of love from the<br />\n&gt; Creator...like I\'m dirty. Is this their goal?\n<p>Their goal is to get you BAPTIZED!!!</p>\n<p>The missionaries are all about numbers. The more you baptize the better. If they can use guilt then fine. But well-adjusted people with a robust and happy social life seldom convert to Mormonism. Ask this questions: did YOU ask for a baptism date or was it their suggestion? Maybe even with a bit of hard sell?</p>\n<hr />\nHeresy<br />\n+!, Do read this link.<br />\nThere are a LOT of issues similar to the Book of Mormon that need your attention.\n<p>Are you aware that the LDS church stopped revealing financial information in 1959? No one knows where the billions go each year.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>anagrammy<br />\nRe: lol, I almost titled my post \"paging ajhart\" - glad you weighed in!<br />\nIf you search this site for \"ajhart\" you will see in her posts the personal growth. She started out tentative with a lot of haha\'s and uncertainty. Now she is sure of herself and confident in the wisdom she has within herself.</p>\n<p>A religion that tells you to look to them for truth, look to them for the right opinion and that the thinking is done by old men in Salt Lake? And if you question, it\'s because of \"darkness\" within you? And if you don\'t get the miraculous witness they say is waiting, i.e., a yes on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, just keep trying til you do?</p>\n<p>Doesn\'t that sound like a disempowering paradigm if you ever heard one?</p>\n<p>Just ask them this: \"If a \'yes\' answer is a burning in my bosom, what does a \'no\' answer feel like?\".</p>\n<p>That\'s not in the memorized training manual and they will stumble and look at each other... you will know for sure they are stooges for a real estate holding company building a huge mall and they are after you for your money and your ovum.</p>\n<p>Anagrammy</p>\n<hr />\n<p>allicat<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\n@ronas I definitely have most concerns over DNA evidence. As a member of two different Native American tribes, it definitely goes against my sensibility and identity as Native person to accept a lot of what they say. In fact, they try to make it seem \"so cool\" that I\'m Native.</p>\n<p>The more I think about it, the less it all makes sense. I know, unequivocally, that I am not genetically related to anyone of the Middle East. The whole thing about horses being in America too was disturbing to me. When I mentioned the facts that I knew, the missionaries simply said that Joseph Smith was putting Egyptian words into \"modern contexts.\" I know for a fact they didn\'t have bread in the Americas...</p>\n<p>I also didn\'t realize that they move missionaries around. He has had several companions that have been shuffled, but he hasn\'t yet. Could this have something to do with the church knowing I trust him and would probably listen to him?</p>\n<hr />\nbaura<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nTell your missionaries that if the Book of Mormon is true then there should be AMPLE evidence of the vast civilization that the Book of Mormon said lasted a thousand years and \"filled the land\" from end to end.\n<p>There must have been THOUSANDS of inscriptions in \"reformed Egyptian\" (which was, evidently something that was an amalgam of Hebrew and Egyptian). Ask the missionaries for just ONE inscription that the anthropological community accepts as being a genuine, pre-columbian Hebrew or Egyptian or a mixture of the two from the Americas. There should be thousands. Ask them for at least one. And, no, the Bat Creek stone is not accepted by the anthropological community as genuine. The \"los lunas\" stone is likewise clearly fake, etc.</p>\n<p>Tell them I\'ll give them $1000 for ONE, JUST ONE.</p>\n<p>And when someone says that a major piece of evidence doesn\'t matter, that means that the evidence is not going the way they want it to. IT MATTERS. IT MATTERS BIG-TIME.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>caedmon<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nSince you have a background in Anthropology you will be interested in what Michael Coe has to say. Coe is the Charles J. MacCurdy professor emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University.</p>\n<p>ww.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/coe.html</p>\n<p>This interview was recorded by PBS as part of the their program \"The Mormons\" which aired a few years ago.</p>\n<p>The rest of the program is just as interesting.</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://www.pbs.org/mormons/\" title=\"http://www.pbs.org/mormons/\">http://www.pbs.org/mormons/</a></p>\n<hr />\nCheryl<br />\nIt\'s a mistake to join a church because you like someone who will only be around for a short time.<br />\nSorry, but that missionary will soon leave if you do or if you don\'t go through with the baptism.\n<p>Missionaries almost never remain longterm friends with their converts. They baptize an investigator and are very soon transfered to a new area to find someone else who thinks they\'re charming and will be baptized.</p>\n<p>You are very perceptive to notice how they try to force your beliefs into a mormon format. These guys have been trained to do that. They have had expert sales training before they started their mission and they\'ve had updates and sales talks reularly since they\'ve been out in the field.</p>\n<p>They have also had meetings with superiors specifically about you with advice given about how to hook you as a mormon.</p>\n<p>The investigators are left in the care and keeping of wardmembers who usually don\'t leave them alone if they decide to quit attending and paying tithes.</p>\n<p>Once baptized, it isn\'t usually easy to back out of full participation. That means taking on weekly jobs for the church, entertaining church representatives in your home, paying tithes, and attending most meetings or suffering harassment if you don\'t.</p>\n<p>Joinging the mormon church is not the same as joining a normal mainstream Christian church. It means being committed to changing your lifestyle and being accountable and beholden to a watchful close-knit group who expect you to progress in their organization. That means strive to pass interviews and achieve a temple recommend, wear regulation underwear, marry a mormon spouse, and reaise up a mormon brood. It\'s a high pressure situation and it\'s much harder to leave it than to initially commit.</p>\n<p>Don\'t rush to baptism. Take your time. Don\'t do it for someone else. Be sure you understand the full situation have all of your questions answered.</p>\n<p>Good luck.</p>\n<hr />\nEx-CultMember<br />\nWhat the Missionaries Won\'t Tell You<br />\nRichard a fellow ex-Mormon has provided the following excellent website you should read.\n<p><a href=\"http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm\" title=\"http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm\">http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm</a></p>\n<hr />\n<p>ajhart<br />\nRe: lol, I almost titled my post \"paging ajhart\" - glad you weighed in!<br />\nHahaha I love you guys:)<br />\nI really, really hope she makes the choice that I should have.<br />\nAllicat- all of these replies are incredibly genuine and from wise people who really, truly want to prevent you from making a huge mistake. I sincerely hope that you deeply reflect upon what everyone has said...these are people who have had to suffer so much because of the LDS church. I know how confusing of a time this is for you- please hang in there and continue to ask as many questions as you can!</p>\n<p>And if it makes you feel better, I totally lied in my baptism interview too haha ooops!;)</p>\n<hr />\nronas<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nWhat the book of mormon teaches is that you have a dark skin because your ancestors in the book of mormon were evil and were cursed.\n<p>Your evil ancestors killed off the white ones when they got evil too. You are cursed and your race is inferior. God made it so that if a white and cursed dark skin person have children, the children get the curse and are loathsome like the cursed parent. But if you are righteous your skin will turn white eventually. Seriously that is ALL in the Book of Mormon.</p>\n<p>The reason your missionary has been around so long is that he is the \"senior\" companion. Most missions won\'t keep a senior companion in a area for more than 5 or 6 months at most - I\'ve heard of as long as 9 or 10 months but that is rare. If he\'s already had several companions his time in your area is probably short. His still being there has nothing to do with them trying to convert you and your being close to conversion. The mission president and APs (two bigshot missionaries who are enforcers for the mission president to all the other missionaries) who make these decisions wouldn\'t even consider that and don\'t even know you exist. They just knows the numbers.</p>\n<p>Also, reading between the lines of some of what you have said in your other posts and knowing what are in the baptismal interview questions and you being uncomfortable I\'m guessing that you have had sex outside of marriage and anticipate doing so again. Do not let them make you feel guilty and dirty for this. If I hadn\'t had sex for the first time on my wedding night I might not be 17 years into a difficult marriage with someone who I am sexually incompatible with.</p>\n<hr />\nGlo<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nLOL either way you will most likely never see him again.\n<p>He may be in \"flirt to convert\" mode - BUT unless you are exceptionally good looking or rich, he will wind up marrying a TBM.</p>\n<p>RUN while you can!<br />\nYou are toying with a cult that masquerades as a family church.</p>\n<p>Moreover, DNA has already shown that the Book of Mormon is a hoax.<br />\nThe ancestors of the American Indians are NOT Hebrews as the BoM claims, they came fro Asia instead.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>rodolfo<br />\nHear it in Michael Coe\'s own words.<br />\nHere is an audio of a discussion specifically on proofs of the BofM</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://mormonstories.org/?p=1880\" title=\"http://mormonstories.org/?p=1880\">http://mormonstories.org/?p=1880</a></p>\n<hr />\nronas<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nHere is one of 13 references to horses in the BoM:<br />\nAlma 18:9\n<p>9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.</p>\n<p>How can you possibly interpret that as \"putting it into a modern context\"? It\'s pretty darned clear that we\'re talking about real horses and a real horse drawn device. Neither of which existing in the Americas until introduced by Spain.</p>\n<p>Besides Joseph Smith and others were quoted many times stating that the Book of Mormon was a word for word literal translation.</p>\n<hr />\nronas<br />\nRe: It\'s a mistake to join a church because you like someone who will only be around for a short time.<br />\nMissionaries very often maintain life long friendships with their converts. They even marry them sometimes.\n<hr />\n<p>allicat<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nI actually am extremely fair skinned lol I bet they must think I\'ve come from some righteous lineage. Fact of the matter is phenotypical development is completely random, my siblings are both dark haired and dark skinned...I have bleach blonde hair. Genes are weird.</p>\n<p>And actually, I haven\'t had sex outside of marriage. Well at least in a way that they\'d care about. I\'m a pretty outspoken bisexual, and I think that if I had told them about that in my interview process they would have immediately shunned me. I wanted to believe that maybe, just maybe, they would be accepting of me. I just hate the feeling of shame lying puts on me.</p>\n<p>And yeah I agree with you about the horses thing. I remember reading it and literally putting the book down and walking away.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>JoD3:360<br />\nWhether you get baptized or not,<br />\nyou\'ll never see that missionary again. He will go home far away once his stint is over and you will only be a number he reports.</p>\n<p>You should take note how they lean in a little closer and speak a little softer while making a point that they want get get firmly across. It is purely a sales tactic, and just like the salesman at the store, once you buy the product they can\'t even remember your name.</p>\n<hr />\nCheryl<br />\nIt can happen, but is not a common occurance.&nbsp;\n<hr />\n<p>allicat<br />\nRe: Whether you get baptized or not,<br />\n@JoD3:360 I guess with years of sales experience I ought to have caught on sooner.</p>\n<hr />\nsummer<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nFirst of all, cancel that baptism date. The church isn\'t going anywhere. It will still be here a year from now. Take that year (or as long as you need) to thoroughly invistigate its claims. You also need to familiarize yourself with the culture of the church.\n<p>That nice missionary will disappear once you are baptised. The mishies will hand you off to your local ward. As others have pointed out, he will disappear within a few weeks or months no matter what you do, because mishies rotate in and out of their assigned areas.</p>\n<p>You\'re correct that the BoM is a bunch of hogwash. There is no archeological support for it no matter how hard the church tries to bend the facts.</p>\n<p>The Mormon church is like few other Christian denominations. It is very demanding of your time and resources. You will go to church for three hours on Sunday, have at least one assigned church job which will likely take additional time, be asked to clean the chapel a couple of times a year, be assigned other church members to visit every month (visiting teaching,) and so on. This is not the type of church that you go to for an hour on Sunday. It is a lifestyle. The church would be involved in all aspects of your life, including what you wear and what you drink. They will expect ten percent of your income along with additional offerings.</p>\n<p>You would be expected to marry in the temple, and would be gossiped about and looked down on if you don\'t. Your parents and other loved ones would not be allowed to see you get married. Does that seem very Christian to you?</p>\n<p>Take the time to read up about Joseph Smith. In his mid-thirties, he started to polygamously \"marry\" teenage girls as young as 14, 15, and 16 (in a day and age when the average young woman did not marry until her early 20\'s.) These were not chaste marriages as some Mormons claim. He claims that an angel with a flaming sword forced him to do that. Use your own good common sense. Why do you think he did it?</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/\" title=\"http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/\">http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/</a></p>\n<p>Also see Steve Benson\'s excellent recent thread on Joseph\'s marriages:</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,386393\" title=\"http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,386393\">http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,386393</a></p>\n<p>One more thing: There is no requirement of confidentialiy in the church. Anything that you tell or confess to your bishop can and *will* get around. Be aware of this!</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Alex Degaston<br />\nOral and Anal Sex are an abomination and whoredom according to the church<br />\nYou need to read what the First Presidency of the church wrote about oral sex. See <a href=\"http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml\" title=\"http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml\">http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml</a> and <a href=\"http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml\" title=\"http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml\">http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml</a> for details. I always get a kick out of how some apologists will occasionally try to say this copy of the letter is fabricated. I personally scanned this copy in as I brought it home from church with me one day about 11.5 years ago when I was a Counselor in the Bishopric and found it in the white temple recommend notebook that our Bishop kept in the office. At the time I was a newbie unbeliever after having spent the first 29 years of my life completely devoted to Mormonism.</p>\n<hr />\nronas<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nUm yeah, if you\'re bisexual you\'re in for a really bad experience with Mormonism. Why would you join something when you have to lie to do so knowing that you are already at odds with their beliefs?\n<p>Is this a real situation or are you yanking our chain?</p>\n<p>Another fun BoM quote:<br />\n2 Ne 5:15-16</p>\n<p>15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.</p>\n<p>16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.</p>\n<p>That\'s pretty impressive (impossible) list of accomplishments for a small group of people (estimate 22) who have just come to a new continent who would be fighting for survival to have accomplished in a few years.</p>\n<p>And hey look what I accidentally found in the same chapter:<br />\nvs 21-25</p>\n<p>21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.</p>\n<p>22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.</p>\n<p>23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.</p>\n<p>24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.</p>\n<hr />\nallicat<br />\nRe: lol, I almost titled my post \"paging ajhart\" - glad you weighed in!<br />\n@ajhart Its so glad to know there are others that have gone through the feelings I have. I feel like at this point, backing out is the right thing to do. I will return the literature to them and try to find a church that fits me, not a church where I have to fit into it.\n<hr />\n<p>allicat<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nDefinitely not yanking your chain. I don\'t know. I guess my issue is not having a sense of belonging anywhere I go, and the LDS church offered a \"place.\"</p>\n<p>I\'ve also come to realize that I\'ve been trying to keep going to church, meeting with missionaries etc a secret. I\'ve been lying about being at work or out with friends to meet with them, because I guess I\'m afraid of other\'s reactions. I really feel like this is a red flag I\'ve been ignoring. If it wasn\'t something I was a shamed of or unsure of, should I really be that scared to tell people I love.</p>\n<hr />\nronas<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nSummer, I completely and totally believe Joseph Smith when he states that a \"flaming sword\" made him do it.\n<hr />\nonendagus<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\nYou mentioned a feeling of guilt they gave you. You aren\'t even a member yet! Just wait until you join--that feeling will grow every single time you go to church and you will begin to understand firsthand why prozac is so popular in Utah.\n<p>Guilt is religion\'s tool to keep control of your life and maintain their power. Few have mastered the use of the tool as mormons have.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>JoD3:360<br />\njust one other point-<br />\nI wonder why they are in such a hurry to get you baptized when you have not even been to their church?</p>\n<p>Surely they would want to see your level of commitment to the church before going ahead with baptism...I mean one of the big issues facing the church is member retention, also known as baptized into inactivity.</p>\n<p>If you were joining the Catholic church it could take about a year of classes and attendance before you would be allowed to be baptized. If you wanted to koin the RLDS church it would be several months before you could join, even the Jehovah Witnesses will make you wait until you have shown a level of commitment and learning.</p>\n<p>If it were me, I would wonder if it was appropriate to ask me to commit to a whole new religious way of life after a couple of visits when they don\'t even know if I care enough to attend on my own.</p>\n<p>Maybe they count on getting you baptized before you have a chance to investigate things to your satisfaction.</p>\n<hr />\nallicat<br />\nRe: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt<br />\n@summer The more and more I\'ve read today has just made me make up my mind. I just feel really scattered. I personally am a really open person, and I don\'t even want to get married in a church despite my belief in God.\n<p>Now I just need to figure out how to tell the missionaries and return my literature. I don\'t want it here.</p>\n<hr />\nronas<br />\nRe: just one other point-<br />\nI know things have changed somewhat in how missionaries are trained since I was one in the early 90s.\n<p>But based on my experience...</p>\n<p>Missionaries are trained to try to get a baptismal commitment date on the second discussion/visit. Depending on the mission the convert is required to attend church once before actually being baptized but not before the commitment for baptism is made.</p>\n<p>If you didn\'t ask for a commitment for baptism you were considered to be a bad missionary under condemnation from god for being afraid to \"open your mouth\".</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1495668678, expire = 1495755078, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:60376260dcdeb3305af7019f61b72a87' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

by allicat Jan 2012

Hello there, everyone. I am looking for answers to some doubts I've had, some fears I've realized and even some petty things that are on my mind about the LDS church and my baptism...

I'll give you some background. I'm 23 years old, single and live in a major metro area in the Midwest. I moved here about a year ago with my best friend. When I was in college, about 2 years ago, I had begun investigating the LDS church with local missionaries, but never attended a service or anything out of fear. I will say that I have always been very strong in my Christian faith but never felt "aligned" with any one doctrine.

I got curious again this year and contacted some missionaries and I've met with them on numerous occasions. I can't decide if this is because I really believe what they're saying, or because one of the young men is rather dashing. I get the feeling that as they're "teaching" me, what they're really doing is taking my malleable beliefs of what Christianity is and trying to hammer it into the Mormon mold. They have also been a little reluctant to answer my questions concerning more hefty doctrine, like exaltation, especially when I bring things up in a rather confused manner.

What particularly concerns me as of late is the increasing lack of anthropological evidence for the BoM. I graduated with a B.A. in Anthropology about a year ago, and have never come across any findings that the BoM is true. While the missionaries will deny that it matters, at least with Christianity and other Abrahamic and other religions there are at best artifacts and historical records of the people or stories (excluding the hyperbolic tales of the old testament). I feel as a highly educated person in the field of anthro that I would have come across..well some kind of actual evidence at some point in my studying.

I feel torn now though, because I have really taken a liking to one of the missionaries. I know that if I don't go through with the baptism, I'll never see him again, but I really feel that there is something wrong with the church and not of any fault of the missionaries. After my baptism interview where I was prodded about my personal life and dark "secrets," I wondered how any man could deem me "worthy" of something.

While I don't have a problem with ceremonial things, something to me seems very wrong and confusing about the whole concept of becoming gods...doesn't that inherently go against Christian teachings?

I really don't know what to do. They've got it in my head that I should believe what they're telling me but I know something is very wrong.


dogblogger
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
www.mormonthink.org will have useful information on many of your topics of concern.
helamonster
Why is it so important to them that you get baptized by a certain date?
That's something you need to think about.

If everything is really as true as they claim, then they should have absolutely no worries about you postponing your baptism until you feel more comfortable with it. Right?

Unless, of course, they have something to hide...


Riverman
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Mormonthink is a great site to look at. It gives you both sides of several issues in the LDS church.

As far as the missionary goes, he will likely be transferred to a new area very soon. The longest I have heard of a missionary staying in the same place is 9 months. But 4 months is probably close to the average. So baptism or not, you will not be seeing him again anyway.


Devorah
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Hey, for what it's worth, no hot guy is worth the "doh" of joining the mormon church.
'Sides, if he's a missionary, there's no opportunity for enjoying his hotness anyway.
There's eyecandy everywhere - don't get hung up on a missionary man.


jon1
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Read all on this link, which is on the home page of this board. http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm It will tell you everything you want to know.

allicat
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
I will definitely check that website out. I'm mostly just feeling lost, as I was starting to make friends. I lied to the missionary coordinator about my past during my baptism interview (and planned future, frankly) behaviors. All I feel now is guilt and like I'm not worthy of love from the Creator...like I'm dirty. Is this their goal?


scooter
they're lying.
even if they don't know that what they're saying is a lie,

they're still lying.

you are simply a project to help them earn Celestial brownie points.

and they will tell you anything to earn those points.


angelina5
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
First of all, you need to make an educated and individual decision. Do your research, I would suggest MORMONTHINK.org for objective and actual facts. Don't make a rushed decision. Take your time :-))
ajhart
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Been there done that- got baptized at 18 on a whim because the missionary was incredibly handsome and charming- now I'm 19, and a lot smarter...just emailed my resignation last night. Trust me, if you are having ANY doubts at all, you shouldn't go through with it. Seriously, once your name is on their records, they will never leave you alone. I was actually raised in the LDS church and let me tell you, it's complete B.S. It ruins families, marriages, lives- you name it. I'd encourage you to keep reading as many posts as you can on this board- these people know what they are talking about! You are SO lucky that you are realizing all this before you formally commit- I have been in your shoes...I wish I would have stopped myself from doing it. It all happened so fast...please, give yourself more time to think about everything!! Any religion that needs a support group has gotta be pretty effed up. Anyways, we are all here for you:)

Aj


wittyname
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Everything in your post seems to imply that you do not believe the Book of Mormon to be true. Mormonism mainly is about, well, mormonsim, not Christianity. If you are looking for a denomination that will enrich your Christian views, you won't get that from LDS. One easy way to understand that is by learning about the way LDS observes Easter... Actually, there are many ways to understand the differences between LDS and Christianity.

You would not be the first girl (or guy) or the 100,000th to convert because of a crush on the missionary. There's a reason why "flirt to convert" is a common expression. But here's he bottom line: you are not very likely to continue having as much attention and interaction with the missionary after you convert. And after he's sent elsewhere, or returns to where he came from, then what? You've got a greater chance continuing to see the Missionary if you don't convert but continue to participate (till you can't any more because it's just so strange and fake). Once you convert, he'll be on to the next golden contact. And all the attention from the missionaries, and from the ward, wanting to welcome you into their faith, that will dry up too once you get baptized.

Good luck. Also Helamonster's advice is very good here.


Misfit
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
If you are on an exmormon board looking for answers, that should tell you something right there.

As a poster on another thread today has so eloquently pointed out, the mormon organization has everything to gain by baptizing you and convincing you to become a member of their church- 10% tithing, another volunteer to do church work, etc. That's why they are so persuasive.

The people who post information online that the church doesn't want you to hear have nothing to gain from you.

Listen to your intuition. Use your education in anthropology, do your own research, and come to your own conclusions.

I second the recommendation to mormonthink.org


rodolfo
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
allicat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Exactly. Mormons make their hay by confusing emotion with evidence. They will tell you that you should feel something, and then tell you that what you felt is evidence of the truth of their interpretation. It is cultish, false and manipulative. Shouldn't you be convinced by the evidence first, and then come to an emotional appreciation of the verifiable evidence second?

Mormonthink.org. The overwhelming evidence against the BofM is shocking.

You won't for sure . . but why should this have any bearing on your decision to accept evidence on its own merits or not?

Not cultish? An iron clad evidence of a cult is the acceptance of behavior in the cult context you would never permit or condone in any other context . . . such as the revelation of personal secrets to strangers for reasons only the cult considers valid.

Please do nothing. Time, patience and research will prove out the value or lack of value. If mormonism is as important as they say what is the harm in careful and sincere investigation. Note that Catholics and other faiths require UP TO A YEAR of instruction and careful evaluation to be sure you are doing the right thing. Why are the mormons in such a hurray to make the sale??

Please let us know what happens.


ronas
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Here's a good place to do some reading: http://20truths.info/ If that's not enough keep looking there's plenty of info out there on the internet. There are lots and lots of issues with the Book of Mormon. Here's a very short list:
1) DNA evidence strongly refutes a link between the American Indians and Jews.
2) The genealogy timelines and population growth are completely non realistic.
3) There are many ridiculous stories in the Book of Mormon like a) a guy standing up and gasping for breath after his head gets cut off at the end of a war with 2 million people that just happened to kill everyone on the entire continent except 2 people (Coriantumr & Ether), b) a teenager prophet (Nephi) hearing voices from god and beheading someone (Laban) because Laban wouldn't give Nephi something Laban had a legal right to but Nephi wanted. Nephi then put on Laban's clothes (no blood from beheading?) and was able to trick Laban's close confidant into believing Nephi was Laban and giving Nephi the greatest archeological treasure in the ancient world (a complete copy of the Old Testament hundreds of years before the Old Testament existed.) c) the Jaredite boats - too nutty to even describe succinctly.
4) There are many references to things like horses, chariots, elephants, wheat, coins, etc. etc. that didn't exist on the American continent but that would not be known at the time when the Book of Mormon was written.
5) The entire contents of the Book of Mormon - 531 pages (plus the 116 lost pages) were supposedly engraved in reformed Egyptian on gold pages the width of tin - the dimensions 6 inches by 8 inches - 2 inches think (2/3 of the 6 inch gold plates were reportedly sealed - to be squeals of the BoM at a later time.) There is no possible way that much Egyptian could fit in that small of a space.

Here's something you need to know about this missionary you like:
1) Once you get baptized you are going to see a lot less of him. He's going to move on to converting other people and leave the ward to fellowship you.

If you really are so desperate as to want to keep in contact with this missionary the best thing is to "have some concerns" and push back your baptismal date which will keep them coming around. You have to bait them that you are close to baptism, but not quite there. If they start to think of you as an "eternal investigator" they will move on. If you are really lucky you can get them to start "camping" at your house - what missionaries do when they don't want to work. Try to get them to watch TV or just hang out and they might start doing that at your place. The fact that you are an investigator helps them rationalize "camping" at your place since they'd rather do that than go out tracting.

2) Missionaries get transferred around a lot. He'll probably only be there another month or so. Once he is transferred there are quite strict rules that he is no longer allowed to be in contact with you - he may break the rules and you may have some minimal contact with him but don't count on it.


azirongrl
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Your situation is EXTREMELY similar to mine. My missionaries took my Christian beliefs and stuffed them into a Mormon mold until I was convinced.

Now, it's been 11 years, and I've resigned my membership and consider the whole experience to be a tremendous waste of time and energy. I almost lost contact with my family by getting baptized - all for nothing.

Please don't do it. Believe what you believe... don't force yourself to be held to any standards set by any organization.


baura
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
allicat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I feel now
> is guilt and like I'm not worthy of love from the
> Creator...like I'm dirty. Is this their goal?

Their goal is to get you BAPTIZED!!!

The missionaries are all about numbers. The more you baptize the better. If they can use guilt then fine. But well-adjusted people with a robust and happy social life seldom convert to Mormonism. Ask this questions: did YOU ask for a baptism date or was it their suggestion? Maybe even with a bit of hard sell?


Heresy
+!, Do read this link.
There are a LOT of issues similar to the Book of Mormon that need your attention.

Are you aware that the LDS church stopped revealing financial information in 1959? No one knows where the billions go each year.


anagrammy
Re: lol, I almost titled my post "paging ajhart" - glad you weighed in!
If you search this site for "ajhart" you will see in her posts the personal growth. She started out tentative with a lot of haha's and uncertainty. Now she is sure of herself and confident in the wisdom she has within herself.

A religion that tells you to look to them for truth, look to them for the right opinion and that the thinking is done by old men in Salt Lake? And if you question, it's because of "darkness" within you? And if you don't get the miraculous witness they say is waiting, i.e., a yes on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, just keep trying til you do?

Doesn't that sound like a disempowering paradigm if you ever heard one?

Just ask them this: "If a 'yes' answer is a burning in my bosom, what does a 'no' answer feel like?".

That's not in the memorized training manual and they will stumble and look at each other... you will know for sure they are stooges for a real estate holding company building a huge mall and they are after you for your money and your ovum.

Anagrammy


allicat
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
@ronas I definitely have most concerns over DNA evidence. As a member of two different Native American tribes, it definitely goes against my sensibility and identity as Native person to accept a lot of what they say. In fact, they try to make it seem "so cool" that I'm Native.

The more I think about it, the less it all makes sense. I know, unequivocally, that I am not genetically related to anyone of the Middle East. The whole thing about horses being in America too was disturbing to me. When I mentioned the facts that I knew, the missionaries simply said that Joseph Smith was putting Egyptian words into "modern contexts." I know for a fact they didn't have bread in the Americas...

I also didn't realize that they move missionaries around. He has had several companions that have been shuffled, but he hasn't yet. Could this have something to do with the church knowing I trust him and would probably listen to him?


baura
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Tell your missionaries that if the Book of Mormon is true then there should be AMPLE evidence of the vast civilization that the Book of Mormon said lasted a thousand years and "filled the land" from end to end.

There must have been THOUSANDS of inscriptions in "reformed Egyptian" (which was, evidently something that was an amalgam of Hebrew and Egyptian). Ask the missionaries for just ONE inscription that the anthropological community accepts as being a genuine, pre-columbian Hebrew or Egyptian or a mixture of the two from the Americas. There should be thousands. Ask them for at least one. And, no, the Bat Creek stone is not accepted by the anthropological community as genuine. The "los lunas" stone is likewise clearly fake, etc.

Tell them I'll give them $1000 for ONE, JUST ONE.

And when someone says that a major piece of evidence doesn't matter, that means that the evidence is not going the way they want it to. IT MATTERS. IT MATTERS BIG-TIME.


caedmon
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Since you have a background in Anthropology you will be interested in what Michael Coe has to say. Coe is the Charles J. MacCurdy professor emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University.

ww.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/coe.html

This interview was recorded by PBS as part of the their program "The Mormons" which aired a few years ago.

The rest of the program is just as interesting.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/


Cheryl
It's a mistake to join a church because you like someone who will only be around for a short time.
Sorry, but that missionary will soon leave if you do or if you don't go through with the baptism.

Missionaries almost never remain longterm friends with their converts. They baptize an investigator and are very soon transfered to a new area to find someone else who thinks they're charming and will be baptized.

You are very perceptive to notice how they try to force your beliefs into a mormon format. These guys have been trained to do that. They have had expert sales training before they started their mission and they've had updates and sales talks reularly since they've been out in the field.

They have also had meetings with superiors specifically about you with advice given about how to hook you as a mormon.

The investigators are left in the care and keeping of wardmembers who usually don't leave them alone if they decide to quit attending and paying tithes.

Once baptized, it isn't usually easy to back out of full participation. That means taking on weekly jobs for the church, entertaining church representatives in your home, paying tithes, and attending most meetings or suffering harassment if you don't.

Joinging the mormon church is not the same as joining a normal mainstream Christian church. It means being committed to changing your lifestyle and being accountable and beholden to a watchful close-knit group who expect you to progress in their organization. That means strive to pass interviews and achieve a temple recommend, wear regulation underwear, marry a mormon spouse, and reaise up a mormon brood. It's a high pressure situation and it's much harder to leave it than to initially commit.

Don't rush to baptism. Take your time. Don't do it for someone else. Be sure you understand the full situation have all of your questions answered.

Good luck.


Ex-CultMember
What the Missionaries Won't Tell You
Richard a fellow ex-Mormon has provided the following excellent website you should read.

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm


ajhart
Re: lol, I almost titled my post "paging ajhart" - glad you weighed in!
Hahaha I love you guys:)
I really, really hope she makes the choice that I should have.
Allicat- all of these replies are incredibly genuine and from wise people who really, truly want to prevent you from making a huge mistake. I sincerely hope that you deeply reflect upon what everyone has said...these are people who have had to suffer so much because of the LDS church. I know how confusing of a time this is for you- please hang in there and continue to ask as many questions as you can!

And if it makes you feel better, I totally lied in my baptism interview too haha ooops!;)


ronas
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
What the book of mormon teaches is that you have a dark skin because your ancestors in the book of mormon were evil and were cursed.

Your evil ancestors killed off the white ones when they got evil too. You are cursed and your race is inferior. God made it so that if a white and cursed dark skin person have children, the children get the curse and are loathsome like the cursed parent. But if you are righteous your skin will turn white eventually. Seriously that is ALL in the Book of Mormon.

The reason your missionary has been around so long is that he is the "senior" companion. Most missions won't keep a senior companion in a area for more than 5 or 6 months at most - I've heard of as long as 9 or 10 months but that is rare. If he's already had several companions his time in your area is probably short. His still being there has nothing to do with them trying to convert you and your being close to conversion. The mission president and APs (two bigshot missionaries who are enforcers for the mission president to all the other missionaries) who make these decisions wouldn't even consider that and don't even know you exist. They just knows the numbers.

Also, reading between the lines of some of what you have said in your other posts and knowing what are in the baptismal interview questions and you being uncomfortable I'm guessing that you have had sex outside of marriage and anticipate doing so again. Do not let them make you feel guilty and dirty for this. If I hadn't had sex for the first time on my wedding night I might not be 17 years into a difficult marriage with someone who I am sexually incompatible with.


Glo
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
LOL either way you will most likely never see him again.

He may be in "flirt to convert" mode - BUT unless you are exceptionally good looking or rich, he will wind up marrying a TBM.

RUN while you can!
You are toying with a cult that masquerades as a family church.

Moreover, DNA has already shown that the Book of Mormon is a hoax.
The ancestors of the American Indians are NOT Hebrews as the BoM claims, they came fro Asia instead.


rodolfo
Hear it in Michael Coe's own words.
Here is an audio of a discussion specifically on proofs of the BofM

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1880


ronas
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Here is one of 13 references to horses in the BoM:
Alma 18:9

9 And they said unto him: Behold, he is feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of Lamoni, who was king over all the land.

How can you possibly interpret that as "putting it into a modern context"? It's pretty darned clear that we're talking about real horses and a real horse drawn device. Neither of which existing in the Americas until introduced by Spain.

Besides Joseph Smith and others were quoted many times stating that the Book of Mormon was a word for word literal translation.


ronas
Re: It's a mistake to join a church because you like someone who will only be around for a short time.
Missionaries very often maintain life long friendships with their converts. They even marry them sometimes.

allicat
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
I actually am extremely fair skinned lol I bet they must think I've come from some righteous lineage. Fact of the matter is phenotypical development is completely random, my siblings are both dark haired and dark skinned...I have bleach blonde hair. Genes are weird.

And actually, I haven't had sex outside of marriage. Well at least in a way that they'd care about. I'm a pretty outspoken bisexual, and I think that if I had told them about that in my interview process they would have immediately shunned me. I wanted to believe that maybe, just maybe, they would be accepting of me. I just hate the feeling of shame lying puts on me.

And yeah I agree with you about the horses thing. I remember reading it and literally putting the book down and walking away.


JoD3:360
Whether you get baptized or not,
you'll never see that missionary again. He will go home far away once his stint is over and you will only be a number he reports.

You should take note how they lean in a little closer and speak a little softer while making a point that they want get get firmly across. It is purely a sales tactic, and just like the salesman at the store, once you buy the product they can't even remember your name.


Cheryl
It can happen, but is not a common occurance. 

allicat
Re: Whether you get baptized or not,
@JoD3:360 I guess with years of sales experience I ought to have caught on sooner.


summer
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
First of all, cancel that baptism date. The church isn't going anywhere. It will still be here a year from now. Take that year (or as long as you need) to thoroughly invistigate its claims. You also need to familiarize yourself with the culture of the church.

That nice missionary will disappear once you are baptised. The mishies will hand you off to your local ward. As others have pointed out, he will disappear within a few weeks or months no matter what you do, because mishies rotate in and out of their assigned areas.

You're correct that the BoM is a bunch of hogwash. There is no archeological support for it no matter how hard the church tries to bend the facts.

The Mormon church is like few other Christian denominations. It is very demanding of your time and resources. You will go to church for three hours on Sunday, have at least one assigned church job which will likely take additional time, be asked to clean the chapel a couple of times a year, be assigned other church members to visit every month (visiting teaching,) and so on. This is not the type of church that you go to for an hour on Sunday. It is a lifestyle. The church would be involved in all aspects of your life, including what you wear and what you drink. They will expect ten percent of your income along with additional offerings.

You would be expected to marry in the temple, and would be gossiped about and looked down on if you don't. Your parents and other loved ones would not be allowed to see you get married. Does that seem very Christian to you?

Take the time to read up about Joseph Smith. In his mid-thirties, he started to polygamously "marry" teenage girls as young as 14, 15, and 16 (in a day and age when the average young woman did not marry until her early 20's.) These were not chaste marriages as some Mormons claim. He claims that an angel with a flaming sword forced him to do that. Use your own good common sense. Why do you think he did it?

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Also see Steve Benson's excellent recent thread on Joseph's marriages:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,386393

One more thing: There is no requirement of confidentialiy in the church. Anything that you tell or confess to your bishop can and *will* get around. Be aware of this!


Alex Degaston
Oral and Anal Sex are an abomination and whoredom according to the church
You need to read what the First Presidency of the church wrote about oral sex. See http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml and http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter1.shtml for details. I always get a kick out of how some apologists will occasionally try to say this copy of the letter is fabricated. I personally scanned this copy in as I brought it home from church with me one day about 11.5 years ago when I was a Counselor in the Bishopric and found it in the white temple recommend notebook that our Bishop kept in the office. At the time I was a newbie unbeliever after having spent the first 29 years of my life completely devoted to Mormonism.


ronas
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Um yeah, if you're bisexual you're in for a really bad experience with Mormonism. Why would you join something when you have to lie to do so knowing that you are already at odds with their beliefs?

Is this a real situation or are you yanking our chain?

Another fun BoM quote:
2 Ne 5:15-16

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

That's pretty impressive (impossible) list of accomplishments for a small group of people (estimate 22) who have just come to a new continent who would be fighting for survival to have accomplished in a few years.

And hey look what I accidentally found in the same chapter:
vs 21-25

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.


allicat
Re: lol, I almost titled my post "paging ajhart" - glad you weighed in!
@ajhart Its so glad to know there are others that have gone through the feelings I have. I feel like at this point, backing out is the right thing to do. I will return the literature to them and try to find a church that fits me, not a church where I have to fit into it.

allicat
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Definitely not yanking your chain. I don't know. I guess my issue is not having a sense of belonging anywhere I go, and the LDS church offered a "place."

I've also come to realize that I've been trying to keep going to church, meeting with missionaries etc a secret. I've been lying about being at work or out with friends to meet with them, because I guess I'm afraid of other's reactions. I really feel like this is a red flag I've been ignoring. If it wasn't something I was a shamed of or unsure of, should I really be that scared to tell people I love.


ronas
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
Summer, I completely and totally believe Joseph Smith when he states that a "flaming sword" made him do it.
onendagus
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
You mentioned a feeling of guilt they gave you. You aren't even a member yet! Just wait until you join--that feeling will grow every single time you go to church and you will begin to understand firsthand why prozac is so popular in Utah.

Guilt is religion's tool to keep control of your life and maintain their power. Few have mastered the use of the tool as mormons have.


JoD3:360
just one other point-
I wonder why they are in such a hurry to get you baptized when you have not even been to their church?

Surely they would want to see your level of commitment to the church before going ahead with baptism...I mean one of the big issues facing the church is member retention, also known as baptized into inactivity.

If you were joining the Catholic church it could take about a year of classes and attendance before you would be allowed to be baptized. If you wanted to koin the RLDS church it would be several months before you could join, even the Jehovah Witnesses will make you wait until you have shown a level of commitment and learning.

If it were me, I would wonder if it was appropriate to ask me to commit to a whole new religious way of life after a couple of visits when they don't even know if I care enough to attend on my own.

Maybe they count on getting you baptized before you have a chance to investigate things to your satisfaction.


allicat
Re: Committed to a baptism date, but now doubt
@summer The more and more I've read today has just made me make up my mind. I just feel really scattered. I personally am a really open person, and I don't even want to get married in a church despite my belief in God.

Now I just need to figure out how to tell the missionaries and return my literature. I don't want it here.


ronas
Re: just one other point-
I know things have changed somewhat in how missionaries are trained since I was one in the early 90s.

But based on my experience...

Missionaries are trained to try to get a baptismal commitment date on the second discussion/visit. Depending on the mission the convert is required to attend church once before actually being baptized but not before the commitment for baptism is made.

If you didn't ask for a commitment for baptism you were considered to be a bad missionary under condemnation from god for being afraid to "open your mouth".

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"