Meldrum's mtDNA X lineage claims vapourized

  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: SELECT data, created, headers, expire, serialized FROM cache_filter WHERE cid = '2:717c842d6f705088b5c3c6f8655dd22d' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 27.
  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>by Simon in Oz Apr 2012</p>\n<p>In 2010 Rodney Meldrum appeared in a DVD documentary \"Lost Civilizations of North America\" where he promoted his flawed X lineage theories. The documentary was produced by Mormons and is clearly intended to give scientific credibility to Meldrum\'s theories by including several short interviews with respected scientists who have studied North American Indian tribes. <a href=\"http://www.lostcivilizationdvd.com/\" title=\"http://www.lostcivilizationdvd.com/\">http://www.lostcivilizationdvd.com/</a></p>\n<p>While Meldrum has succeeded in duping thousands of gullible (mostly retired) Mormons he has angered many of the scientists who were interviewed who were unaware that the documentary would twist their words to support his diffusionist claptrap.</p>\n<p>Four scientists were so upset by the way they were portrayed in the DVD that they recently published a three part series of critiques of the DVD. The third in the series focusses on the DNA evidence and gives a comprehensive critique of Meldrum\'s X lineage claims. The scientists conclude that \"there is no credible archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest that any Old World peoples migrated to the Americas after the initial incursion from Siberia prior to the tentative forays of the Norse beginning at around 1000 CE other than limited contacts between Siberia and the American arctic\".</p>\n<p><a href=\"http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages\" title=\"http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages\">http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_h...</a></p>\n<hr />\nSocrates2<br />\nHey Simon, I took my family down to St. George to visit my mom last month<br />\nand she brought up something about a dvd she just bought that proves there were horses during BofM times. I told her no, there weren\'t horses during BofM times and that they all went extinct around 10,000 BCE. I knew it was some pro-mormon group taking advantage of gullible mormons who desperately want to believe it\'s all true.\n<p>Does this Meldrum guy say anything about horses in his dvd? If so, I bet it was his dvd that my mom bought.</p>\n<p>And here\'s another question, which I pose to anyone who makes similar absurd claims, \"If they truly believe they have made a big discovery, like horses during BofM times, why don\'t they make the effort to write up a thesis where they present all their evidence to the appropriate experts in the field? Why are they even bothering to make a dvd without first making their case to other experts who can support or refute the arguments? Obviously, this is just a money-making scam. I don\'t know how much my mom paid for the two dvds but it really pisses me off because she doesn\'t even have the money to make ends meet.</p>\n<p>These guys are just manipulators and con-men.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Heresy<br />\nFantastic statement. This will be invaluable in internet arguments.<br />\nConclusion</p>\n<p>\"In the past, many scholars have pointed to a sometimes explicitly racist agenda behind the claims of diffusionists who argue that the glories of Native American civilizations were achieved only through borrowing from various Old World groups. The producers of the Lost Civilizations of North America and the diffusionists they feature in their documentary turn this argument on its head by suggesting that it is instead those “mainstream” scholars who are the real racists because they deny Native Americans their role in an already globalized world of the early centuries of the Common Era. However, the only support for this picture of Native American–Old World interactions two thousand years ago comes from resurrected frauds and distorted history. There is no credible archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest that any Old World peoples migrated to the Americas after the initial incursion from Siberia prior to the tentative forays of the Norse beginning at around 1000 CE other than limited contacts between Siberia and the American arctic.\"</p>\n<hr />\nalex71ut<br />\nHere\'s what they do when they find \"evidence\"<br />\nA conference talk by a member of the 1Q of the Seventy\n<p><a href=\"http://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/05/united-in-love-and-testimony?lang=eng\" title=\"http://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/05/united-in-love-and-testimony?lang=eng\">http://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/05/united-in-love-and-testimony?lang=eng</a></p>\n<p>Now, 50 years later, I am still impressed by these new names. When researchers reported that they have discovered stones in the southern Arabian Desert with the name Nahom inscribed on them, I paid attention. These inscriptions appear to be dated about 700 B.C. Ishmael, we read, was buried in a place called Nahom. Nahom is one of those names that impressed me.</p>\n<p>Evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon continues to mount. During his mission in Germany, Jack Welch found verses in the Book of Mosiah that clearly form a chiasmus, or an X-shaped configuration. That finding evidenced ancient rather than modern authorship. Scholars continue to find and publish new insights into what the book says and how it says it. A distinguished literature professor has published a recent book containing his lifetime study of the Book of Mormon, detailing its astonishing variety of literary forms.6 Statisticians have found evidence of multiple authors within the covers of the book. Although these evidences have added to my testimony, the original powerful witness of the Holy Ghost has remained unshaken and unaltered. It has also recurred many times.</p>\n<hr />\nHappy_Heretic<br />\nOuch! I hope Meldrum bought credibility insurance...<br />\nBecause, it was severely damaged in that head-on collision with science.\n<hr />\n<p>Simon in Oz<br />\nRe: Hey Simon, I took my family down to St. George to visit my mom last month<br />\nSocrates2 Wrote:<br />\n-------------------------------------------------------</p>\n<p>I am certain Meldrum says something about horses. He needs to sell DVDs to feed his family and he has proven already that he is prepared to cherry pick for the good evidence. I recently corresponded with him and he is on an enormous high. He is utterly convinced that he is saving the faith of thousands of members.</p>\n<p>I think Meldrum started out with good motives but he is now a conman. He is ripping off the elderly members who are desperately trying to find some physical evidence that supports their faith. Remember, that the senior members of the church were reassured time and time again early in their lives that archaeological evidence supported the Book of Mormon. Meldrum should be embarrassed and ashamed due to the criticisms he has received from the scientists whose work he distorts, but he has shown arrogance in response.</p>\n<hr />\nbaura<br />\nRe: Here\'s what they do when they find \"evidence\"<br />\nYou haven\'t been paying enough attention. No stones with \"Nahom\" on them were discovered in the Arabian desert. Only the consonants \"NHM\" were discovered. They could have been short for \"Nehmm\" or \"Nohim\" or \"Neham\" or \"Nuhim\" etc. the addition of the vowels \"a\" and \"o\" are extrapolations by Mormon apologists to convince people like you that belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon is reasonable.\n<p>It is not.</p>\n<p>You are putting your hopes into a phony book.</p>\n<hr />\nspanner<br />\nRe: Meldrum\'s mtDNA X lineage claims vapourized<br />\nThe other articles in the series are linked in an earlier post here:\n<p><a href=\"http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,484552,484552#msg-484552\" title=\"http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,484552,484552#msg-484552\">http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,484552,484552#msg-484552</a></p>\n<p>A fair bit of debunking of a number of claims occurs in the three articles.</p>\n<p>However a critical distinction needs to be made. The heartland model which is the main focus of the articles, is espoused by FIRM, an unofficial outfit that has the support of some general authorities, Alan Osmond, Glen Beck, and assorted other luminaries. FIRM have absolutely nothing to do with FAIR, the Maxwell Institute, BYU, or the mainstream church.</p>\n<p>FAIR and FIRM do quite a good job of debunking each other. If you follow both arguments you will end up believing in none of them. Not bad from our point of view</p>\n<hr />\nJesus Smith<br />\nRe: Here\'s what they do when they find \"evidence\"<br />\nBaura, it\'s a quote from the link. Alex is one of us. Your retort is good, and nails that GA.\n<hr />\nJoD3:360<br />\nLet\'s remember too that JSjr altered many biblical names for thr BoM<br />\nNahum in the Old Testament is just one of many.\n<p>I would like to point out one major fallacy in the NHM argument--<br />\nIs it possible that a single stone on an entirely different continent with the initials of a common name sufficient to dismiss the fact that on this continent where there is absolutely no evidence of any kind to suggest Old World civilizations, and absolutely no evidence of two massive wars in upsate NewYork in the exact spot that The Prophet said they occured?</p>\n<p>To me, the place mentioned as \"the Land of Jerusalem\" is much stronger evidence, by far.<br />\n...........</p>\n<p>But the bigger issues are the origins of the plates story:</p>\n<p>And what about the original intent of the Plates? BEFORE they were a record of ancient peoples, were SAID by Joseph Smith to be a key to obtaining the slippery treasures of Josephs gold-digging days.</p>\n<p>And what about the Treasure Guardians?<br />\nBefore Moroni was an angel from the Lord, what descriptions did Joseph JR and Joseph SR say guarded the treasure/plates?<br />\nThey were alternately said to be a Bloody Spaniard, a tall man, a short man, and other entities that had nothing to do with the angel that originally appeared to him in a dream to tell him about this great treasure key.</p>\n<hr />\nProbitas est optimus<br />\nRe: Meldrum\'s mtDNA X lineage claims vapourized<br />\nWhich GAs have supported FIRM\'s conclusions? Links?\n<hr />\nalex71ut<br />\nYou never know .... I could be a troll<br />\nRebekkah a while back on another thread pointed out to someone that I\'m a troll. I was hoping to get a chastisement from Susan I/S for a stupid remark I made which caused the Spirit to tell Rebekkah that I\'m a troll. But just like Elohim does with all my prayers the great Susan I/S ignored my transgression. I don\'t know what Spirit she was listening to but it must know something about me that I don\'t know. Truth be told I think it would be nice (with the exception of all the BS I see in mortality that\'s LDS-caused) if the church could be true due to the fact I\'d like to live forever. However from time to time I do say some things on here that aren\'t very TBM-like which probably might make people think I\'m not a TBM troll. For starts I think Monson/Packer ought to come clean with the legal system officials for the obstruction of justice they committed in a particular situation on letting a known child molester roam the streets in order to protect the church\'s reputation. Then they tried to get a friend of mine ex\'ed for helping a young adult get the help he needed from the abuse he suffered as a child because this resulted in bad publicity for the church because the child molester went to jail and got his name and former church calling in the papers. What\'s not known publicly is the complicity of the Brethren on this coverup and to what extend they went to in trying to keep it quiet. So far they\'ve succeeded because my friend works around lots of Mormons, has a TBM wife, and doesn\'t want to be on their radar screen (and that\'s why I don\'t give out more details; only enough that would self-incriminate the church if they went after him). IMO may those crooks rot in prison for the rest of their lives for their continual fleecing of people since they committed this crime and still covering it up to this day. Why do you think Spanier/Paterno were fired at Penn State? They were failed leaders just like Monson/Packer.\n<p>In this situation Jesus Smith is correct. I was just regurgitating what John Carmack said. I was just the messenger .... getting shot by Baura ;) Its alright Baura .... it really doesn\'t phaze me one bit if someone criticizes me on RfM.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>bignevermo<br />\nif i didnt know axel...i would have thought the sam Baura!<br />\nquotations would have helped!! :) but yeah...the BoM is twoo...see we have some consonants that prove it!!<br />\n:)<br />\njust sayin!</p>\n<hr />\nSL Cabbie<br />\nHartman Rector, Emeritus GA...<br />\nMany from the Virginia area know of him. I\'m a nevermo and even I knew two of his sons here in Utah...\n<hr />\n<p>SL Cabbie<br />\nAnd Oases, and Rivers and Rocks and Things as Well...&nbsp;</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1493514866, expire = 1493601266, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:717c842d6f705088b5c3c6f8655dd22d' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

by Simon in Oz Apr 2012

In 2010 Rodney Meldrum appeared in a DVD documentary "Lost Civilizations of North America" where he promoted his flawed X lineage theories. The documentary was produced by Mormons and is clearly intended to give scientific credibility to Meldrum's theories by including several short interviews with respected scientists who have studied North American Indian tribes. http://www.lostcivilizationdvd.com/

While Meldrum has succeeded in duping thousands of gullible (mostly retired) Mormons he has angered many of the scientists who were interviewed who were unaware that the documentary would twist their words to support his diffusionist claptrap.

Four scientists were so upset by the way they were portrayed in the DVD that they recently published a three part series of critiques of the DVD. The third in the series focusses on the DNA evidence and gives a comprehensive critique of Meldrum's X lineage claims. The scientists conclude that "there is no credible archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest that any Old World peoples migrated to the Americas after the initial incursion from Siberia prior to the tentative forays of the Norse beginning at around 1000 CE other than limited contacts between Siberia and the American arctic".

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_h...


Socrates2
Hey Simon, I took my family down to St. George to visit my mom last month
and she brought up something about a dvd she just bought that proves there were horses during BofM times. I told her no, there weren't horses during BofM times and that they all went extinct around 10,000 BCE. I knew it was some pro-mormon group taking advantage of gullible mormons who desperately want to believe it's all true.

Does this Meldrum guy say anything about horses in his dvd? If so, I bet it was his dvd that my mom bought.

And here's another question, which I pose to anyone who makes similar absurd claims, "If they truly believe they have made a big discovery, like horses during BofM times, why don't they make the effort to write up a thesis where they present all their evidence to the appropriate experts in the field? Why are they even bothering to make a dvd without first making their case to other experts who can support or refute the arguments? Obviously, this is just a money-making scam. I don't know how much my mom paid for the two dvds but it really pisses me off because she doesn't even have the money to make ends meet.

These guys are just manipulators and con-men.


Heresy
Fantastic statement. This will be invaluable in internet arguments.
Conclusion

"In the past, many scholars have pointed to a sometimes explicitly racist agenda behind the claims of diffusionists who argue that the glories of Native American civilizations were achieved only through borrowing from various Old World groups. The producers of the Lost Civilizations of North America and the diffusionists they feature in their documentary turn this argument on its head by suggesting that it is instead those “mainstream” scholars who are the real racists because they deny Native Americans their role in an already globalized world of the early centuries of the Common Era. However, the only support for this picture of Native American–Old World interactions two thousand years ago comes from resurrected frauds and distorted history. There is no credible archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest that any Old World peoples migrated to the Americas after the initial incursion from Siberia prior to the tentative forays of the Norse beginning at around 1000 CE other than limited contacts between Siberia and the American arctic."


alex71ut
Here's what they do when they find "evidence"
A conference talk by a member of the 1Q of the Seventy

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/05/united-in-love-and-testimony?lang=eng

Now, 50 years later, I am still impressed by these new names. When researchers reported that they have discovered stones in the southern Arabian Desert with the name Nahom inscribed on them, I paid attention. These inscriptions appear to be dated about 700 B.C. Ishmael, we read, was buried in a place called Nahom. Nahom is one of those names that impressed me.

Evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon continues to mount. During his mission in Germany, Jack Welch found verses in the Book of Mosiah that clearly form a chiasmus, or an X-shaped configuration. That finding evidenced ancient rather than modern authorship. Scholars continue to find and publish new insights into what the book says and how it says it. A distinguished literature professor has published a recent book containing his lifetime study of the Book of Mormon, detailing its astonishing variety of literary forms.6 Statisticians have found evidence of multiple authors within the covers of the book. Although these evidences have added to my testimony, the original powerful witness of the Holy Ghost has remained unshaken and unaltered. It has also recurred many times.


Happy_Heretic
Ouch! I hope Meldrum bought credibility insurance...
Because, it was severely damaged in that head-on collision with science.

Simon in Oz
Re: Hey Simon, I took my family down to St. George to visit my mom last month
Socrates2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I am certain Meldrum says something about horses. He needs to sell DVDs to feed his family and he has proven already that he is prepared to cherry pick for the good evidence. I recently corresponded with him and he is on an enormous high. He is utterly convinced that he is saving the faith of thousands of members.

I think Meldrum started out with good motives but he is now a conman. He is ripping off the elderly members who are desperately trying to find some physical evidence that supports their faith. Remember, that the senior members of the church were reassured time and time again early in their lives that archaeological evidence supported the Book of Mormon. Meldrum should be embarrassed and ashamed due to the criticisms he has received from the scientists whose work he distorts, but he has shown arrogance in response.


baura
Re: Here's what they do when they find "evidence"
You haven't been paying enough attention. No stones with "Nahom" on them were discovered in the Arabian desert. Only the consonants "NHM" were discovered. They could have been short for "Nehmm" or "Nohim" or "Neham" or "Nuhim" etc. the addition of the vowels "a" and "o" are extrapolations by Mormon apologists to convince people like you that belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon is reasonable.

It is not.

You are putting your hopes into a phony book.


spanner
Re: Meldrum's mtDNA X lineage claims vapourized
The other articles in the series are linked in an earlier post here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,484552,484552#msg-484552

A fair bit of debunking of a number of claims occurs in the three articles.

However a critical distinction needs to be made. The heartland model which is the main focus of the articles, is espoused by FIRM, an unofficial outfit that has the support of some general authorities, Alan Osmond, Glen Beck, and assorted other luminaries. FIRM have absolutely nothing to do with FAIR, the Maxwell Institute, BYU, or the mainstream church.

FAIR and FIRM do quite a good job of debunking each other. If you follow both arguments you will end up believing in none of them. Not bad from our point of view


Jesus Smith
Re: Here's what they do when they find "evidence"
Baura, it's a quote from the link. Alex is one of us. Your retort is good, and nails that GA.
JoD3:360
Let's remember too that JSjr altered many biblical names for thr BoM
Nahum in the Old Testament is just one of many.

I would like to point out one major fallacy in the NHM argument--
Is it possible that a single stone on an entirely different continent with the initials of a common name sufficient to dismiss the fact that on this continent where there is absolutely no evidence of any kind to suggest Old World civilizations, and absolutely no evidence of two massive wars in upsate NewYork in the exact spot that The Prophet said they occured?

To me, the place mentioned as "the Land of Jerusalem" is much stronger evidence, by far.
...........

But the bigger issues are the origins of the plates story:

And what about the original intent of the Plates? BEFORE they were a record of ancient peoples, were SAID by Joseph Smith to be a key to obtaining the slippery treasures of Josephs gold-digging days.

And what about the Treasure Guardians?
Before Moroni was an angel from the Lord, what descriptions did Joseph JR and Joseph SR say guarded the treasure/plates?
They were alternately said to be a Bloody Spaniard, a tall man, a short man, and other entities that had nothing to do with the angel that originally appeared to him in a dream to tell him about this great treasure key.


Probitas est optimus
Re: Meldrum's mtDNA X lineage claims vapourized
Which GAs have supported FIRM's conclusions? Links?
alex71ut
You never know .... I could be a troll
Rebekkah a while back on another thread pointed out to someone that I'm a troll. I was hoping to get a chastisement from Susan I/S for a stupid remark I made which caused the Spirit to tell Rebekkah that I'm a troll. But just like Elohim does with all my prayers the great Susan I/S ignored my transgression. I don't know what Spirit she was listening to but it must know something about me that I don't know. Truth be told I think it would be nice (with the exception of all the BS I see in mortality that's LDS-caused) if the church could be true due to the fact I'd like to live forever. However from time to time I do say some things on here that aren't very TBM-like which probably might make people think I'm not a TBM troll. For starts I think Monson/Packer ought to come clean with the legal system officials for the obstruction of justice they committed in a particular situation on letting a known child molester roam the streets in order to protect the church's reputation. Then they tried to get a friend of mine ex'ed for helping a young adult get the help he needed from the abuse he suffered as a child because this resulted in bad publicity for the church because the child molester went to jail and got his name and former church calling in the papers. What's not known publicly is the complicity of the Brethren on this coverup and to what extend they went to in trying to keep it quiet. So far they've succeeded because my friend works around lots of Mormons, has a TBM wife, and doesn't want to be on their radar screen (and that's why I don't give out more details; only enough that would self-incriminate the church if they went after him). IMO may those crooks rot in prison for the rest of their lives for their continual fleecing of people since they committed this crime and still covering it up to this day. Why do you think Spanier/Paterno were fired at Penn State? They were failed leaders just like Monson/Packer.

In this situation Jesus Smith is correct. I was just regurgitating what John Carmack said. I was just the messenger .... getting shot by Baura ;) Its alright Baura .... it really doesn't phaze me one bit if someone criticizes me on RfM.


bignevermo
if i didnt know axel...i would have thought the sam Baura!
quotations would have helped!! :) but yeah...the BoM is twoo...see we have some consonants that prove it!!
:)
just sayin!


SL Cabbie
Hartman Rector, Emeritus GA...
Many from the Virginia area know of him. I'm a nevermo and even I knew two of his sons here in Utah...

SL Cabbie
And Oases, and Rivers and Rocks and Things as Well... 

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"