Posted by blue on September 14, 1999 at 21:54:33:
In Reply to: Not a misconception posted by Erik on September 14, 1999 at 01:51:00:
: I disagree. There is nothing any finite being could do in this finite life to merit an infinite punishment.
I am fully convinced there is only one sin that is punished -- rejection of God. If you disdain God all your life, you will spend the next away from His presence -- right where you want to be. God forgives all those who come to Him.
: God let a murderer continue to reign his "chosen people" while in turn murdering a newborn babe for the crime of his father. That's not a mercy - that's a travesty.
By this logic, you must argue that God murders everyone. He could allow them to live forever, but doesn't. Again, you assume life on earth is a reward, while entering heaven is a punishment. Then, of course, we will see things oppositely.
: (Erik) Wrong, I want justice. Justice does not put me in hell. While I'm certainly not a perfect person, I have never done anything in my life to merit the eternal punishment of your theology. A God who would damn forever his own creations for the petty crime of disbelief is the most debase and cruel being in the universe. The only thing worse than being condemned to eternity in hell would be eternity in heaven with this monstrous tyrant. I can think of no greater perversion of the word "justice", than to apply it to the doctrines of sin and hell.
Then justice you shall have.
: :You want forgiveness instead.
: (Erik) For what? The high-crime of being born? For being what an omniscient being would have known I would be, ever before I was created? I want forgiveness from those that I may have wronged - to claim that I could in any way harm an infinite being is absurd.
You certainly cannot harm God, just as you say. The high crime is insisting to reject what you know to be true. (Don't take my "you" personally, by the way. I am debating your statements, not your person.)
: (Erik) Actually, I would argue that God's sin here is the greatest, for to murder 70,000 people for the terrible crime of "numbering" is an incredible and inexcusable crime. The Old Testament in rife with examples like this that show how barbaric and utterly unjust the Hebrew God was.
: (Erik) This makes sense when one realizes that the Hebrew God was the creation of a superstitious people in search of explaining the uncertain and often dangerous world they inhabited. The mysterious and indifferent forces of nature such as pestilence could not easily be understood or combated, but the personification of such in the Hebrew God could be related to and possibly appeased (through sacrifices, etc).
:
: (Erik) Actually death seems to be the punishment of choice for the Old Testament God.
The punishment follows the death.
: (Erik) It really amazes me the cheapness that you assign to life. As finite beings, we value our time alive as the most precious thing we have, and therefore consider it the greatest crime of all to unecessarily bring that time to an end for another being. It is no less a crime for it to be committed by God, especially against a newborn with the express purpose of punishing another's crime.
I assume our existence is infinite, not finite. Since our assumptions differ, our conclusions do as well.
:If you truly believe that the baby has suffered no injustice here and is now in heaven, perhaps the most noble sacrifice you can make would be to kill babies before they can sin, ensuring them heaven for the price of your damnation.
Abortion is, indeed, popular. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee all babies go to heaven, although they probably do. But it isn't right for me to end anyone's life. Not even my own. That's God's job.
:
: : Again, "it is appointed unto man once to die and THEN the judgment."
: Why?
Because God is just. I hope you see that some day.
: PS Sorry about the delay in my reply. School is time consuming.
I enjoy your discourse whenever you can find the time. Good luck in school.