Posted by Erik on September 14, 1999 at 01:51:00:
In Reply to: A common misconception. . . posted by blue on September 06, 1999 at 22:32:54:
: Correct in a large sense. A God who quickly executed justice would have all of us in hell right now instead of allowing us to continue in sin.
I disagree. There is nothing any finite being could do in this finite life to merit an infinite punishment.
: God was merciful to David.
God let a murderer continue to reign his "chosen people" while in turn murdering a newborn babe for the crime of his father. That's not a mercy - that's a travesty.
:Remember, the last thing you want from God is justice. Justice puts you in hell.
(Erik) Wrong, I want justice. Justice does not put me in hell. While I'm certainly not a perfect person, I have never done anything in my life to merit the eternal punishment of your theology. A God who would damn forever his own creations for the petty crime of disbelief is the most debase and cruel being in the universe. The only thing worse than being condemned to eternity in hell would be eternity in heaven with this monstrous tyrant. I can think of no greater perversion of the word "justice", than to apply it to the doctrines of sin and hell.
:You want forgiveness instead.
(Erik) For what? The high-crime of being born? For being what an omniscient being would have known I would be, ever before I was created? I want forgiveness from those that I may have wronged - to claim that I could in any way harm an infinite being is absurd.
: You could also argue David's later sin of numbering the Israelites was greater than that of the adultery and murder, based upon the consequences.
(Erik) Actually, I would argue that God's sin here is the greatest, for to murder 70,000 people for the terrible crime of "numbering" is an incredible and inexcusable crime. The Old Testament in rife with examples like this that show how barbaric and utterly unjust the Hebrew God was.
(Erik) This makes sense when one realizes that the Hebrew God was the creation of a superstitious people in search of explaining the uncertain and often dangerous world they inhabited. The mysterious and indifferent forces of nature such as pestilence could not easily be understood or combated, but the personification of such in the Hebrew God could be related to and possibly appeased (through sacrifices, etc).
:This is a common misconception, namely that death is a judgment. Death is followed by judgment, and the Bible frequently uses death as a sign of judgment, but death itself is not judgment. Bringing a baby to heaven is no judgment upon the baby.
(Erik) Actually death seems to be the punishment of choice for the Old Testament God. And yes, it is a punshiment. The child is killed by God because of the crime of David. I never said the baby was being judged, only that he was being punished. This is exactly the point about the injustice here - punishment of the innocent for the crime of the guilty.
(Erik) It really amazes me the cheapness that you assign to life. As finite beings, we value our time alive as the most precious thing we have, and therefore consider it the greatest crime of all to unecessarily bring that time to an end for another being. It is no less a crime for it to be committed by God, especially against a newborn with the express purpose of punishing another's crime. If you truly believe that the baby has suffered no injustice here and is now in heaven, perhaps the most noble sacrifice you can make would be to kill babies before they can sin, ensuring them heaven for the price of your damnation.
: Again, "it is appointed unto man once to die and THEN the judgment."
Why?
-Erik
PS Sorry about the delay in my reply. School is time consuming.