Posted by rpcman on April 07, 1998 at 18:55:50:
In Reply to: More on Helel posted by mikeyom on April 07, 1998 at 18:21:57:
: A) It does not matter for the discussion, if
: "Lucifer" is a reasonable Latin translation of
: the Babylonian "Helel", what matters is that
: JS's vocabulary associated the name "Lucifer"
: with Satan.
No, what matters is that Isaiah wasn't referring to an evil, mythical creature. Joseph Smith thought he was by reading the KJV of the Bible and knowing the Christian interpolation of the word Lucifer.
: B)I get my resources from numerous commentaries
Can you quote for us from one of them then that backs your assumption but isn't LDS? I've read exactly what you've written several times in Mormon apologetic sources. I've yet to read a scholarly approach to Isaiah that claims he knew about or referenced the Christian devil.
: C)You on the other hand are not honest. I clearly
: illustrated that it was not a mistranslation to
: coincident with Jerome's Vulgate, but can be traced
: back to Tertullian. A point which is relatively
: easy to verify, and a point which you avoid by
: denying its existence, thus committing the fallacy
: of exclusion. (Tertullian lived form ~160-240,
: 165 years before the Vulgate. Tertullian considered
: this passage to be a reference to Satan also.)
This is irrelevant. Even if you can trace it to Tertullian (which I haven't denied as you falsely assert) it does nothing to help the case of Joseph Smith's borrowings from the KJV of the Bible.
: You need to take a course in logic. AND THEN USE
: IT.
And you should rely on something other than ad hominems and apologetics.
: Michael replied:
: Again with the dishonesty. Within this statement
: is a lie and a truth. The truth is that the term
: 'Lucifer' was a "scriptural" reference to Satan.
Lucifer is a term you want to be a reference to Satan. You haven't shown this.
: it is clear that Joseph Smith is in the
: company of Tertullian, St. Gregory, Jerome, John,
: and the Christ, are you having fun yet?
Joseph Smith claims to be translating a record written before 600 BC. Which one(s) of these folks lived before 600 BC?