Posted by eman on September 21, 1998 at 10:41:47:
In Reply to: Bible posted by Steven Cooke on September 17, 1998 at 16:58:45:
:
: I do believe the Bible to be totally inerrant and infallable, I do have faith in the Bible and Jesus the Son of God, I would appreciate it if you would give me some examples of the supporting evidence of evolution and how I should believe it more than the Law of gravity, I know that I do see gravity taking place peaple and objects arent just floating into space, on the other hand I dont see species in between species, or any transitional stages of evolution, if it is all around me please point the evidence out to me.
: Thanks for you time
: Steven Cooke
Apparently, it is religious faith that allows you to accept the Bible as inerrant. My question to you was whether you believe it to be literally true based on scientific evidence. I have no problem with those who believe through faith; the problem I have is when folks choose to believe that there is a valid "scientific" basis for the literal Bible and that it should be taught alongside Evoulution in a public school biology class. Fortunately, that philosophy of teaching Young Earth Creationism in the public schools has been defeated in the courts, which held that it violated Church-State separation. Several mainstream Christian denominations were also against the teaching of Creationism in school. One of those denominations is the Roman Catholic Church. I am Roman Catholic and it is our faith that the Bible was never intended to be taken literally, cover to cover. Some portions describe historical fact, but others are romantic or poetic strories which are used to explain a lesson for life. The official Roman Catholic stance is that the earth quite possibly is 4.5 billion years old and that evolution occurred. They believe that God used the natural laws to allow life on earth to evolve over billions of years. The Church states that early man did slowly evolve into its modern form and at a point in man's evolution, God gave him a soul. If the young earth creationist version were taught in public schools, it would not only violate Church-State separation, but it would also be descriminatory towards other religious beliefs. The Constitution states that the government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion; teaching the Christian Fundamentalist religion in public schools would violate this. Fundamentalist Christians who follow the literal Bible are in the minority of those in the U.S. professing to be Christian. There are nearly as many Roman Catholics in the U.S. as there are Protestants together.
As far as your other questions concerning evidence for evolution, transitional species, etc., please examine the Talk.origins site at www.talkorigins.org. In that site are listed several answers to FAQs. At www.talkorigins.org/faq-misconceptions.html#chance you can read their responses to the five major misconceptions that people have concerning evolution in general. Transitional fossils can be found at www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional. The articles footnotes will also lead you to several studies on transitional fossils. The sites www.talkorigins.org/evolution-fact.html makes the point that evolution is both fact and theory. If you would like to examine the observations made supporting evolution, look at www.talkorigins.org/faq-speciation.html and www.talkorigins.org/speciation.html.
Although I know that the supporting evidence is out there and available, and has survived the careful scrutiny of the scientific community, I feel that I may be wasting my time. I believe that, since you feel that the literal Bible is inerrant, anything that calls that belief into question will be either ignored or discarded by you. I don't feel that you will ever change your faith in the literal Bible no matter what evidence is presented. But since you feel that the Bible is inerrant, I have a few questions of my own
Please explain to me the following problems that I have discovered: Genesis 1:3-5, 14-19 : There was light ("night and day") before there was a sun. (Note: If there were no sun, there would be no
night or day. Also, light from the newly created heavenly bodies seems to have reached the earth instantaneously though
now it takes thousands or millions of years). Genesis 1:12,16 : Plants begin to grow before there was sunlight. Genesis
1:29 : Every plant and tree which yeild seed are given by God as good to eat. (Note: This would include poisonous plants
such as hemlock, buckeye pod, nightshade, oleander.) Genesis 1:11-12, 26-27 states that trees were created before man
was created, but according to Genesis 2:4-9, man was created before trees. In Genesis 1:20-21, 26-27, birds were
created before man was created, but in Genesis 2:7,19, man was created before the birds. In addition, in Genesis
1:24-27, animals were created before man was created, but again in Genesis 2:7,19, man was created before animals
were created. According to Genesis 1:26-27, man and woman were created at the same time, but in Genesis 2:7, 21-22,
man was created first, woman sometime later. In Genesis 2:17, Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden
fruit but according to Genesis 5:5, Adam lived 930 years. In Genesis 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16, two of each kind are to be
taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark. In Genesis 7:2-5, seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken)
aboard the Ark. And speaking of Noah's Ark; it must have been significantly larger than described in the Bible. According
to the size of the Ark described in Genesis 6:15, it was such that there would be about one and a half cubic feet for each
pair of the 2,000,000 to 5,000,000 species to be taken aboard. If some believers feel that Noah only took "kinds" of
animals, and not every species, than that would have to lead you to believe that evolution occurred. How else could you
save only a small subset of the available species of animals on the Earth and have them lead to the diversity in species that
we see today. Also, where were the dinosaurs? Presumably they would have had to been on the Ark, since several
Creationist believe that man coexisted with dinosaurs (even though there is NO KNOWN VALID EVIDENCE to
support this. According to Genesis 8:20, Noah's first recorded action following the flood is to sacrifice one of every clean
animal and bird. (Considering that only a pair of each may have been aboard the Ark, this is rather wasteful and
defeating). In Genesis 9:12-16, God first creates the rainbow. (Note: Apparently the laws having to do with refraction of
light were null and void prior to this time). In nGenesis 7:19-20, the flood covered the earth with water fifteen cubits
(twenty plus feet) above the highest mountain. (Note: This would require steady, worldwide rainfall at the rate of about 6
inches per minute, 360 inches per hour, 8640 inches per day--for 40 days and nights--so as to cover the entire earth with
an endless ocean 5 miles deep, thus burying 29,000 ft. Mt. Everest under 22 feet of water. Where has all the water
gone?). Also, how did all the creatures of the distant continents travel across vast ocean distances to get to the Ark before
the flood? Some creatures presumably would never make it since their lifespan is much shorter than the time that would be
required to reach the Ark. In Genesis 18:1, 7-8, God eats solid food with Abraham. According to EX 12:30, the Lord
kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not
a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first born--a most unusual situation. In EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46, The
number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as about 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and
older men would probably mean that a total of more than 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt at a time when the whole
population of Egypt was less than 2,000,000. In EX 17:14, God says that he will utterly blot out the remeberances of
Amalek. (That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible). In LE 11:20-21, there are winged creatures
(birds or insects) that go around on all fours. (Note: There are no birds that go around on four legs, and all insects have
six legs). LE 11:6, states, incorrectly, that the rabbit, or hare, chews its cud. In LE 14:33-57, God himself believes that a
house or clothes can have leprosy and he details the remedy. In LE 14:49-53, the cure for leprosy involves incantations
and the blood of a bird. According to ISA 2:8, JB 38:4, PS 104:5, the earth has a foundation and cannot be moved.
What about the rotation of the earth and its orbit around the sun? Were these mechanisms not functioning back then?
Natural laws must not have operated the way we know them today. According to 1KI 18:33-38, fire consumes wet
wood, stones, and dust, and "licks up" water. In 2KI 6:5-7, an iron axe head "swims" (or floats). In 2KI 20:11, the
shadow on a sun dial moves backward. Did earths revolution reverse? According to 2CH 21:20, 22:1-2, Ahaziah was
forty-two when he became king; he succeeded his father, who died at the age of forty. Thus Ahaziah was two years older
than his father. According to JB 9:6 (KJV), God shakes the earth out of its place and makes its pillars tremble. What
pillars? The earth doesn't rest on pillars. In JB 9:7, God can make the sun not rise and seal up the stars. This would also
mean that the earth's rotation would cease. PS 58:8 says that slugs and/or snails melt as they move. I guess the "evolved"
since this does not occur today. IS 11:12, RE 7:1 state that the earth has four corners. What four corners can you get on
a sphere? Maybe the Bible writers thought that the earth was a flat square. According to IS 24:1 (KJV), the earth can be
turned upside down so as to scatter its inhabitants. How do we know that it is not upside down today? What is the point
of reference as to what is up? Also wouldn't gravity hold you in place whether you're on the "top" of the earth or the
"bottom"? In MT 4:8, there is a high mountain from which all the kingdoms of the world can be seen. (Note: This implies a
flat earth). According to 2CO 12:2, there are at least three heavens. Which is the one believers go to? HE 7:1-3, says that
Melchizedek had no mother or father, no beginning or end. Did he appear out of nothing? According to RE 21:16,
Heaven is only 1500 miles square. It may get a little crowded.
This is what Creationists use for their "science" resource in their search for the origins of life? Well, taken literally, cover to
cover, sure doesn't seem to make sense in the light of accepted science and logic today. In fact it appears to contradict
scientific notions that are also accepted by most Creationists. According to many Creationists writings, there were no
carnivores prior to the great flood. Presumably, lions, tigers, wolves, hawks, eagles, sharks, and even T Rex's ate only
vegetative matter. Since all of the physical evidence discovered and observations made concerning carnivores indicate that
their anatomy (digestive system, teeth, etc) would not support this notion, they must have "evolved" since the flood. I also
wonder how a large creature like a T-Rex could survive without animal protein. His teeth were not design to enable him to
process vegetative material. If the literal Bible is Creationists main science resource, it is no wonder why they are reluctant
to submit there "research" to the scientific community. Their ideas just cannot stand up to scientific scrutiny, even when
using their literal Bible as a reference. There are several more contradications, inconsistancies, scientific error, etc. in a
literal translation of the Bible that I could give you if you wish. I find it fascinating that Creationists constantly misuse
scientific methods and logic in order to attack the accepted and well-supported evolutionary theories of today, without
closely examining their own precious religious documents. The Bible even implies that a bat is a bird! That would be one
heck of an evolutionary leap for the bat to change from a bird to the mammel we know today! Unfortunately, the
Creationist movement should be no surprise...the Christian religion, for years has tried to destroy advances in scientific
thought when it appeared that it may contradict their literal translation of the Bible. Remember Galileo, Copernicus, and
the scientific libraries of ancient Alexandria. Fortunately for mankind, science has always inevitably triumphed, or
otherwise we would still be in an ignorant nomadic society of sheepherders. The Bible has survived to this day because
mankind has been relatively successful in redefining and reinterpreting the Bible in accordance with the advances in man's
knowledge of his universe. Hopefully this will continue, or we will become a third-world nation of scientifically ignorant,
supersticious people. I, however, am optimistic about mankind and feel that the purpose for our (God given?)reasoning
brain and human curiosity is to explore our universe, constantly gaining more knowledge of how it operates.
Thank you for your time.